2008 Mini (Non S) small bore?

[Bigbacon]

I know it isn't listed in the FAQ but curious if they fall into the small bore or not.

[eage8]

I know it isn't listed in the FAQ but curious if they fall into the small bore or not.

It does use bmw's version of VTEC (Valvetronic) and is DOHC... but it only has 118 hp/114 ft.lbs

it'll have to be Ed Chan's call.

EDIT: the "no DOHC VTEC" rule doesn't seem to be in the FAQ, but I'm pretty sure it's an actual rule

[eage8]

After some more wiki-ing it appears to only have valvetronic on the intake cam, so I imagine it's small bore legal...

[echan]

In the FAQ section under Small Bore, the 2001-2009 BMW Mini Cooper (not the Cooper S) is listed. This should be updated to 2011, but you get the idea.

So yes, the mini (non-S) qualifies for small bore (normally aspirated).

Ed

[Bigbacon]

I swear it had a different year range when I looked this morning which is why I asked...stupid me.

Sorry.

[Dan133]

Welcome to Small Bore! Please be gentle with us.

[ButtDyno]

It does use bmw's version of VTEC (Valvetronic) and is DOHC... but it only has 118 hp/114 ft.lbs

Pretty much everything built in the last 10 years uses some sort of variable valve timing.

It's not witchcraft.

[eage8]

It does use bmw's version of VTEC (Valvetronic) and is DOHC... but it only has 118 hp/114 ft.lbs

Pretty much everything built in the last 10 years uses some sort of variable valve timing.

It's not witchcraft.

I know, but Honda DOHC VTEC is illegal for small bore:

1972-2009 Honda Civic (original engine type and displacement, no VTEC except single overhead cam variants)

It's only fair that we should carry over the same rule for other makes. It's not the VVT that's concerning it's the variable lift.

[Dan133]

If you rule out ALL VVT you also disqualify most NB Miata's.

[eage8]

If you rule out ALL VVT you also disqualify most NB Miata's.

Variable lift and variable valve timing are different. VTEC does both. Miata VVT does not.

[Dan133]

Whew... That's a relief. Although with your new trans and diff you and AJ are head and shoulders above anything I can see a moderately prepared Miata can compete with (at least with one of you two behind the wheel). Hats off to you both for car prep and especially driving skills!

[FredK]

We'll see, I got my crappy old Miata back last weekend. Some wusses cancelled my test n tune, but I'll be there next event. BTW it might be cold....

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

I really don't understand how VTEC or VVTI or w/e valve crap has anything to do with times, results, classing, w/e... Sure, I seem to gain 6whp around when vtec engages on my '95 Civic, but, it's a jump from a whopping 77whp to a mind blowing 83whp. Max is at a staggering 96whp (all that of which I never attain on a cdc course since it's at 6600rpm and don't get me started on torque..). And I'm above ~5200rpm on a typical CDC course for how long?

From my experience jumping from my '95 Civic that HAS vtec to the '91 Civic that DOESN'T have vtec, I will be the first to say vtec does not make ANY difference! Both cars have very similar mods(afterall they are in the same SCCA class) and the '91 makes less power and no vtec, yet, it's significantly faster. Why? Weight, shorter wheel base, and tires. The DOHC Honda's wouldn't stand a chance in Small Bore even with the vtec. There is a reason no one runs those cars competitively in SCCA. They are simply to heavy and too long.

Just sayin'.

[BugBomb]

Aj, CDC's rules don't have anything to do with the VTEC in your Civic. That's just variable valve timing, and as you pointed out, it doesn't do much. We are just trying to keep those 180HP engines from the Civic Si and the Integra GS-R out of the smallbore competition. Anything with variable valve lift can greatly increase the power output.

[eage8]

Aj, CDC's rules don't have anything to do with the VTEC in your Civic. That's just variable valve timing, and as you pointed out, it doesn't do much. We are just trying to keep those 180HP engines from the Civic Si and the Integra GS-R out of the smallbore competition. Anything with variable valve lift can greatly increase the power output.

actually AJ's engine does have variable lift. it's just SOHC so it's limited to only the intake valves which doesn't make as big of a difference.

but yea AJ, if a well tuned ITR showed up your opinion might differ... Is the ITR ST legal?

[03threefiftyz]

ITR is STX because it comes with a real diff from the factory....

[eage8]

ITR is STX because it comes with a real diff from the factory....

Ahh, thought so, but I couldn't think of why.

[david.valeri]

but yea AJ, if a well tuned ITR showed up your opinion might differ... Is the ITR ST legal?

If it wasn't so damn cold, I would consider bringing the GSR out with some sticky tires on it to end this discussion. It however is not what I would call "well tuned".

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

Aj, CDC's rules don't have anything to do with the VTEC in your Civic. That's just variable valve timing, and as you pointed out, it doesn't do much. We are just trying to keep those 180HP engines from the Civic Si and the Integra GS-R out of the smallbore competition. Anything with variable valve lift can greatly increase the power output.

My whole point is that it does not matter that the Integra's(mainly the GS-Rs) and '99-'00 Civic Si can make some power... The Integra's and the 6th gen Si's are too heavy and too long. My daily driver '99 Civic coupe looks like a monster compared to the '91 Civic Si side by side (and feels big when driving it too). Like I said, there's a reason you don't see Integra's or 6th gen Si's at national events. Just look at the results from this past nationals event

Top times:
ST- 136.614 in an '89 Civic Si
STS- 135.428 in what looks to be a ~'90 Miata
STX- 135.531 in an '89 Civic Si with LSD.

^All street tire cars

CSP- 132.694 in what looks to be a ~'90 Miata
FSP- 133.327 in I believe a '92-'95 Civic Si Hatchback

^These cars open to more mods than ST* classes and allow r-compounds. They still meet Small Bore rules.

DP- 128.237 in a what looks to be a ~'90 Miata that's chopped up and bare bones gutted.
EP- 131.438 in a what looks to be a ~'84 Civic that's bare bones gutted.
GP- 131.726 in a what looks to be a ~'84 Civic that's bare bones gutted.

^Again these cars open to more mods than *SP classes and allow r-compounds. As far as I know, they still meet Small Bore rules.

Looking at Street Modified which allows motor swaps (such as the 1.6 or more popular 1.8 from the GS-R's/ITR's)
130.131 in Brian's K-Civic
130.861 in an '89 Civic Si with some crazy built up B18 motor
131.864 in a Civic with some swap
134.602 in a civic with what might be a built up LS(1.8l) motor
134.730 in a CRX Si with a built up B18.

The SM cars likely have MORE power than the D, E, & G Prepared cars yet those Prepared cars are running about the same times or faster. These times are from a course much larger and open than any that CDC runs, meaning the powerful cars should be able to use some of their power... On a typical CDC course, I think you'll find those Prepared cars would do substantially better. Simply because they are sooo much lighter and are tiny.

Hell take Fred or Wade Cobra's for instance. IIRC, they weight about the same and have the same wheel base as a Miata, but have real wide r-comps and 2-3x the WHP, oh and are RWD vs FWD in the Integra/Civics... Oct 8th event I was 1.74 seconds behind Fred in the Civic. Sept 24th event I was 1.72 seconds behind Wade in the Civic. They have waaaaaay more tire and power than me and RWD, but if I built any of those *Prepared cars, I could probably raw time them(yes, even in a Miata). The Integras and 6th gen Si's do not stand a chance in the Small Bore class, esp on the lots CDC runs. With the current cars competing in Small Bore(ie: myself, Mike, Dan, Frank, etc..), they COULD do well IF someone brings out a fully built/gutted/r-compound Integra/Civic, but, by the rules of Small Bore, someone could still be faster in an older Miata/CRX/Civic. They just need to build an older Miata/CRX/Civic up properly..

but yea AJ, if a well tuned ITR showed up your opinion might differ... Is the ITR ST legal?

There are only a few ITR's running "competitively" in the country, most of which are in Stock class. I've seen some in STX, but, they would get murdered by an '89 Civic Si...


Ultimately I don't care if the Integras and 6th gen Civic Si's are allowed in Small Bore or not. I don't have either car and wouldn't want to run either of them anyways. I'm just trying to show that it's possible for these cars to run and have little impact on the cars competing. I'm also trying to open the class up to more cars to bring in more competition and promote the only class in CDC currently. Just my .02.

[03threefiftyz]

AJ...it is very difficult to quantify results at nationals with events that we run. Everything is different...in the sense of course, surface, and most of all...weather. Different days bring variable conditions at Nationals (which can mislead on the overall times).

I can't beat anyone at CDC really, but I can generally hold my own with our typical FTD contenders at some of the other clubs. I can't for the life of me figure out why I am on the pace elsewhere, but can't get that close (even on hoosiers) with CDC.

Also, the FSP national champ was driving a BMW 2002...not EG civic.

I do think opening up "small" bore to all 1.8l cars and under is a strong way to go....regardless of cpu controlled variable wizardry. Gods chariot (88-91 si)...is going to be pretty much the car to beat in small bore even with opening up to other makes, etc. The only exception will be if a "real" csp car/driver or someone like Ian Baker shows up in an STS car show up.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

I realize it's not perfect to compare results at nats but it was more to show the cars and what they can do in certain trim. Which all of those should meet Small Bore rules with no problem.

You crush me at FedEx but I can beat you even raw time at CDC because the lots/courses are so small and tight. We both know your car has over double the HP then the Civic, but clearly it doesn't really matter at the CDC lots. It's all momentum at CDC. Which is why I'm saying I don't think there's any need to be concerned about having say a GS-R run in Small Bore.

I know Jinx's car didn't win, but it did finish 3rd and I remember him being in the final like 4 or something at last years WDCR Pro-Solo. But Brian knocked him out . Just mentioned it since it's a Small Bore spec car that would easily do well at CDC events.

And yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. I have ZERO concern for even some built up GS-R running in Small Bore. I can understand why some may be concerned with allowing GS-R's or w/e in Small Bore right now , but, rules are rules and there's nothing saying someone can't bring in a monster Miata or CRX in the picture and completely run away with Small Bore and even overall points with little fight on their part. I'd be much more concerned if someone brought a CSP, FSP, or D, E, G Prepared Miata/CRX/Civic. Were talking ~1100lb cars with r-comps and a fair amount of power. I know Ian's CRX in STS trim weighed in at 1890lbs and he said he could still lose weight in STS trim... In CSP or Prepared trim, yeah, just over 1000lbs is possible.. I'd say an easy contender for cleaning up both Small Bore, Index and probably even raw times for a season (if the field now doesn't change).

[03threefiftyz]

Top level CSP miatas are in the 1850-2000lb range...

The prepared cars (outside our cobras) aren't too big of worry because the well prepped cars can't compete at CDC (NO non-dot hoos/goodyears allowed). They could always put on A6's, but I doubt highly any would incur the expense to run an event or two with one club.

The one guy who could really lay a whoopin' on all of us if showed would be allen kugler in his crx. That thing is crazy fast, but has no horsepower. It is probably borderline 1500lbs, though.

I would like to add an exclusion to the 1.8l rule, however.....no lotus elises. That's a super stock car and has no business in small bore.

[eage8]

Point taken.

btw, EP was won by an AE86...

124.419... ridiculous

AJ is starting to make me feel sad about my corolla's strangely long chassis

[JoeTR6]

Ed can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original idea was for small bore to be for cars like AH Sprites, Spitfires, MGs, and maybe an occasional CRX HF. You guys with those massive 1.8 liter cars should feel lucky you weren't excluded. Maybe we need a new trophy for the original small bore cars called the Rusty Cup.

As another example of not in the "spirit" of small bore, consider my MazdaSpeed. In stock form, it's really not much faster than a normal NB. It did come from the factory with a decent suspension and an extra 200 pounds. Stock vs. stock, I believe a regular NB is a better autocrosser. Now add a few bolt on mods, and the turbo starts actually doing something. It just has too much potential.

Maybe we should just consider an absolute HP limit. Dyno pulls aren't cheap, but this is easier to enforce.