Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Parking lots and traffic cones.

Should we cap the HP index at 1.03 for vehicles above 250HP?

Poll ended at Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:05 pm

No, keep the HP indexes the same as in 2011
11
39%
Yes, limit the HP index at 1.03 for vehicles over 250 HP
17
61%
 
Total votes: 28

dmyer
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by dmyer »

I agree there are many other clubs to choose from if someone wants to compete, but like you said, some people just really like the CDC atmosphere. The top like 15 or so cars running for index points last were all modified, some heavily. So where's that leave the guys running stock cars who may want a shot at points?
Last year was my first full year autocrossing - I think I did 8 CDC and 2 Autocrossers Inc. I have no illusions about being able to compete with the top 15 drivers (I tied for twentieh) as I am simply not as good a driver yet nor is my stock Mini capable of keeping up even if the talent level was equal. So why do I want to play with CDC?

1) - A real nice group of people having fun - they sell sausages for lunch and play music!
2) - I can run what I bring as is.... I have no interest in modifications
3) - while I cannot compete with the top drivers and cars - I can certainly compete with similar cars and talent level... especially myself
4) - A lots of events - a great opportunity to get lots of seat time fast so that I can improve, and maybe, readjust my competition goals
5) - IMO - I do not care about points other than to collect as many as possible to track my progression as a driver

Don't try to fix what is not broken...
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by LaurenceC »

In my opinion, the club is beginning and already has to some extent, to established itself as one where everyone gets a 1st place trophy for showing up.

Those who are serious about autocross do go to SCCA and other venues. I'm not 100% on the SCCA classes either as AJ said, " there are so few true XP cars running". Just because a Cobra is beating you, that doesn't mean the Cobra is not indexed properly. Just the same, if AJ comes in and beats the Cobra guys. It could be a combination of skill, car, and level of commitment financially. My car didn't make me any faster than the rest, my competition (Wade and Fred) and drive to be better did. I didn't just spend money to get fast either. Part of commitment to racing is figuring out how to make your car handle better. Anybody can spend $2500 on a set of shocks, but experience will show you the proper adjustments. Fortunately, the SCCA has a huge amount of data for creating its indexes. We will never touch that and not all cars work for the system either. Why we avoid this like the plague is a mystery.

I hear allot about our club being laid back, fun and index in the same sentence. Index and the quality of participants are totally different subjects. Yes, our club is full of cool people and every event is fun... for the most part. Changing the index to let people who are not as committed have a chance can shift the competitive nature from good driving to working the system. We have seen this many times.

Is a good system one that allows a new less experienced driver who shows up beat a multi year driver who spent a little cash to make his car better?

As for our system being easy for people, that makes no sense either. My car was BP once and now XP. I can't do anything to change that and most people are in the same boat. They start as stock and move to street prepared. Once you know your car and been to our events the extremely tough task of figuring that out it over. Our current system just shifted the questions. Now instead of people being able to see the changes and making assumptions, they have to rely on the competitor to be honest. We don't have scales or a dyno on site the last I checked.

The current system is broken and I'm saying this as a competitor who isn't allowed to be part of the points. I don't know how exactly to fix it either other than going with a system with tons of history. Narrow the classes down to a subset that matches our field the best possible.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by MicaCeli »

dmyer wrote:
I agree there are many other clubs to choose from if someone wants to compete, but like you said, some people just really like the CDC atmosphere. The top like 15 or so cars running for index points last were all modified, some heavily. So where's that leave the guys running stock cars who may want a shot at points?
Last year was my first full year autocrossing - I think I did 8 CDC and 2 Autocrossers Inc. I have no illusions about being able to compete with the top 15 drivers (I tied for twentieh) as I am simply not as good a driver yet nor is my stock Mini capable of keeping up even if the talent level was equal. So why do I want to play with CDC?

1) - A real nice group of people having fun - they sell sausages for lunch and play music!
2) - I can run what I bring as is.... I have no interest in modifications
3) - while I cannot compete with the top drivers and cars - I can certainly compete with similar cars and talent level... especially myself
4) - A lots of events - a great opportunity to get lots of seat time fast so that I can improve, and maybe, readjust my competition goals
5) - IMO - I do not care about points other than to collect as many as possible to track my progression as a driver

Don't try to fix what is not broken...
1) This is why I come to CDC events. People and atmosphere is great, much more relaxed then some of the other Auto-X events that I go to.

As for the rest....none of this would be impacted if we did SCCA index. Actualy their pax numbers would benefit you, if you even care. SCCA pax is there as a handicap to show you how you stack up as a driver and tries to take the car out of the equation, but you also have people with similar cars to your with similar mods/no-mods to yours that would be in your class that you can compare yourself to.

2) - I can run what I bring as is.... I have no interest in modifications
3) - while I cannot compete with the top drivers and cars - I can certainly compete with similar cars and talent level... especially myself
4) - A lots of events - a great opportunity to get lots of seat time fast so that I can improve, and maybe, readjust my competition goals
5) - IMO - I do not care about points other than to collect as many as possible to track my progression as a driver

I am not saying that you have to use the SCCA pax system. Just saying that there are clubs that use it (Cumberland, fun events that many people here go to) and it works. It’s not perfect but it is an established pax system that’s kind of self regulating AND someone else does all the work for you to align the PAX classes yearly….so that we don’t have to have these threads yearly.

NASA also has a PAX system…but that confuses me.

At first you learn how you Auto-X....don't need competition there. But like AJ said to keep Auto-Xing you need the competition to keep it fun and to keep improving....then again you can just have fun and drive, PAX doesn't have any impact on competition when there is none.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by hufflepuff »

i agree with rocky. To me, CDC seems to be more fun and friendly oriented rather than overly competitive. The index system is simple. If you REALLY want to know who the better driver is, you need to both drive the exact same car, or participate in a spec racing series, or go go-karting, ect. it's difficult to have an index system that is simple that can also be completely even and fair.

i think that if the people with over 250HP feel they are being penalized too much, they could run a restrictor plate for 3 runs and without for 3 runs and see how much slower (or maybe even faster...) they go at a CDC event. This would provide quantitative evidence to say that more horsepower does not make you have faster laps.

I think a much more critical aspect not captured is tire width. i used to run 205mm tires on my relatively heavy srt4, and i received no handi-cap compared to cars with big tires. I would argue the tread width-to-weight ratio is just as important as power to weight ratio, if not more so.

Yes, i agree that tons of extra power will not make you significantly faster at CDC lots, but i think there is some burden of proof to say "adding 100hp will not, at all, improve my run time". Being able to reduce boost, or run a restrictor plate, could provide evidence to support or refute the 250hp top index.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by MicaCeli »

I will say that I have never had an issue with the SCCA PAX. My issues with the local SCCA events are probably the same as the others. You spend too much time working on out course and don't have enough time to hang out with your friends, and by the time you have time to do that you are too tired to even care and just want to go home.

This atmosphere does not exist at CDC. The events are run well and you have a ton of time to BS with your friends and meet people and just...hang out. I don't think that this would change if we went to a different PAX system. It's the people that make it fun, not PAX. All PAX does is help you equalize the playing field.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by hufflepuff »

Check out the nasa time trial car classification. Almost everything imaginable is captured. This could be tweaked for autocross indexing.

http://www.nasa-tt.com/Rules
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Imprezive_04 »

I've proposed a spirit of the rules SCCA index in the "changes for next year" thread on this forum for at least the last 3 years. The first 8 cars in index points (maybe more?) are prepped to an SCCA class, run SCCA events, and may or may not make good cars for their class.

The CDC index is actually kind of close. For example the Sept 24 results:

AJ - Raw_44.09 -- CDC_44.08 -- SCCA_36.15
Ryan - Raw_43.31 -- CDC_44.16 -- SCCA_36.55
Wade - Raw_42.37 -- CDC_46.06 -- SCCA_37.71 *note drop the 1.04 and Wade's index is 45.61 at CDC*

So the order stays the same. If you drop the 1.04 it aligns more with SCCA. They have eleventy billion years of data to support their rules, like it or not. Anyone who cares about over all index points already does SCCA. The awesome atmosphere would not change. People could still run what they brung regardless. It will still favor certain cars and certain prep with the CDC courses. If your shift knob pushes you into prepared, it's BS everyone knows it's BS and no one at CDC or local level SCCA would give a crap.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by moxnix »

NASA has classing but I have not seen an index based on their classing.
Imprezive_04 wrote:If your shift knob pushes you into prepared, it's BS everyone knows it's BS and no one at CDC or local level SCCA would give a crap.
Shift knobs - Now legal in SCCA stock classes.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Tedzilla »

Every year Index Flu breaks out during silly season... Doesn't matter if the board is CDC, SCCA or NASA, it happens every year. The only known cure is the first Autocross.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by AJ_RDR_Civic »

MicaCeli wrote: At first you learn how you Auto-X....don't need competition there. But like AJ said to keep Auto-Xing you need the competition to keep it fun and to keep improving....then again you can just have fun and drive, PAX doesn't have any impact on competition when there is none.
I didn't know what the hell PAX was like the entire 1st year I started AutoXing. Then I understood it(somewhat) and didn't care for another like 3 years. Only in the past 2 or so years have I really started to look at how I stack up in PAX. First couple of years was focusing on improving my skills, didn't pay much attention to competition. Started to pay attention to competition and that helped me progress even more. I'm still learning and progressing by pushing to do Tours and Pro Solos. My goal of going out and having fun has never changed from my 1st event 6 years ago.. I fully agree that any Index numbers has zero impact on fun and won't affect the CDC atmosphere so many enjoy.

Autocrossers Inc. is a good example of a fun, close nit atmosphere that uses SCCA PAX. Good mix of low key, casual/newb autoxers and also high level competition. Not saying CDC has to be that, but it works.. As well as Cumberland from what I've heard.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by eage8 »

hufflepuff wrote:Check out the nasa time trial car classification. Almost everything imaginable is captured. This could be tweaked for autocross indexing.

http://www.nasa-tt.com/Rules
I actually classed my FC for nasa TT a few weeks ago...

It's really involved (a 6 page work sheet and a table of min weights/classes for cars) and ended up with the answer that I had to submit a dyno plot of my car to the nasa director to give me a class :-P.

I don't think that would be better...
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by hufflepuff »

eage8 wrote:
hufflepuff wrote:Check out the nasa time trial car classification. Almost everything imaginable is captured. This could be tweaked for autocross indexing.

http://www.nasa-tt.com/Rules
I actually classed my FC for nasa TT a few weeks ago...

It's really involved (a 6 page work sheet and a table of min weights/classes for cars) and ended up with the answer that I had to submit a dyno plot of my car to the nasa director to give me a class :-P.

I don't think that would be better...
I had mine classed within 10 minutes.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by 03threefiftyz »

Any car that is moderately or more modified for street prepared (meaning all prepared and modified cars) is VERY unfavorable classed in NASA's system. I am not even sure my car would be in TT/NX-A at this point. Hell, I have to take 29 points just for 315 A6's and 12 points just for the Motons. That's already up to A-class.

The system just needs a wee bit of tweaking IMO, not a complete overhaul.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by hufflepuff »

03threefiftyz wrote:Any car that is moderately or more modified for street prepared (meaning all prepared and modified cars) is VERY unfavorable classed in NASA's system. I am not even sure my car would be in TT/NX-A at this point. Hell, I have to take 29 points just for 315 A6's and 12 points just for the Motons. That's already up to A-class.

The system just needs a wee bit of tweaking IMO, not a complete overhaul.
True. And what AJ said was true too- lightly modded or unmodified cars are unfavorable with the current CDC index. So the NASA index is definitely not an immediate solution.

I'm a very competitive person, but I don't really care how my calculated "points" stack up against others within CDC. That's why i didn't vote on the 250hp index cap. without running "spec" cars, i dont think there is (or will ever be) an index to fairly capture all the possible car differences. I guess that doesn't mean we can't try to improve the system.

I watch the front runners and make my assumptions about how much is the car and how much is the driver. Riding along is always a great privelage to learn. I'm not going to spend lots of money modding my car, so i don't expect to be a front runner in index. I focus, however, on seeing my times drop, trying to learn, and running the best i can with what i have. when i do track days at summit, my car's modification disadvantage tends to seem less important. ;) For me, feeling like i left as little on the table as possible is the most rewarding.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by MicaCeli »

hufflepuff wrote: For me, feeling like i left as little on the table as possible is the most rewarding.
Agreed, although AJ still beats all the dang time time....we used to be close and now he destroys me. But his name sounds Awesome "ALEJANDRO" so I can't hate :)
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Rock Star »

AJ_RDR_Civic wrote:The top like 15 or so cars running for index points last were all modified, some heavily. So where's that leave the guys running stock cars who may want a shot at points? The CDC index doesn't favor them IMO.
I run a basically stock car which has the additional disadvantage of being an automatic. If you look I did pretty well this year in points (11th maybe? would have been better with less drops). I am by no means on the same level of driver as the top guys and do not pretend to be. I have improved, but still have a ways to go. If I was a better driver I feel like I could be competing for a trophy, the way it should be. No doubt though, within the current system I could massively improve the car without affecting the index, but as Larry touched on it still takes experience and the skill of the driver to make the most of it.
AJ_RDR_Civic wrote: Same deal with Small Bore. It's supposed to be a class for cheap cars, but to compete you need to spend a lot of money. Goes against the original idea of the class.
I agree I think that we should do away with this class, even though I did just buy a car for $2200 that is eligible for it. Maybe instead of limiting motor size we limit amount of money spent on the car ala LeMons?
hepcatz wrote:As the resident CDC vegan, I'm all for penalizing those that down a ham sandwich or two... :lol:
Haha awesome. Do we get a benefit for running on veggie oil (bio diesel).
Tedzilla wrote:Every year Index Flu breaks out during silly season... Doesn't matter if the board is CDC, SCCA or NASA, it happens every year. The only known cure is the first Autocross.
Thumbs up on this. Bring it on, I needs my drug :D
AJ_RDR_Civic wrote:I didn't know what the hell PAX was like the entire 1st year I started AutoXing.
Forgive me I am still in this phase. Whatever everyone decides, it doesn't matter to me as long as it is still easy to understand and doesn't scare any noobs away.
hufflepuff wrote: For me, feeling like i left as little on the table as possible is the most rewarding
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by SicMonte »

I say drop all the index stuff and run what you brung.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Bigbacon »

why not just keep it simple? the more and more indexes that get added, the more the club moves away from the fun/laid back aspect and gets into that all that SCCA confusion and annoyance.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Imprezive_04 »

What was the decision here?
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by FredK »

That 250+ is the top hp index, but this thread was really just an autocross I.Q. test 11 people failed.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

Fred Kelley, ladies and gentlemen,.......winning friends and influencing people wherever he goes. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by echan »

The top HP index is now at 250hp.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by evolicious »

I agree with the new rules, not because I'm biased or anything :? but because at a certain point it doesn't matter how much power you have if you're running street tires. You are at the limitations of grip where hp does not matter anymore. The straights at the CDC courses are not long enough for a high hp car to overwhelm the competition. IMO the cdc courses are about momentum, correct lines, and car control- this is a good thing. Bottom line, high hp should not be penalized, because the course setup does not advantage them in any way (except for old Summit point- LOVED that track). When the folks that have high hp run slicks, they are penalized enough (slick modifier). I remember when I ran with you guys a few years ago with high hp on street tires, I had to come within 2-3 seconds of the cobras and others with slicks to win indexed time- that's crazy. For those that say run what you brung and no indexed time- then in order to have a chance to win, you must run slicks, lighten the car and maybe put some downforce on there (not sure if speeds are great enough for it to matter). When it comes down to it, autox biggest speed factors are weight and grip(for most). I'm sorry, but I arrive way to late to swap out wheels and tires. #hangover

Hopefully I'll be seeing you guys at the towards the end of the year with a new evo X.... totally stock of course ;)

PS. It was nice to shake the rust off at the rainy TNT Frederick local after a 2 year break. Big thanks to Cyrille for letting me drive his car, getting back into it, and getting FTD (albeit 14 cars). It was a nice experience to drive in the rain at the limit, but working totally sucked.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Imprezive_04 »

FYI the FAQ section of the website could use some house cleaning due to this rule change. All of the barcodes with a 6 for HP can be removed and the 1.04 multiplier listed for over 350hp needs to be removed from the list in the FAQ.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by JoeTR6 »

Thanks, Ryan. The printed number is wrong, but the code is still correct, so it's really a cosmetic issue. The timing software is treating HP index 6 the same as 5. Still, this causes confusion so I'll tidy it up.
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