Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

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Should we cap the HP index at 1.03 for vehicles above 250HP?

Poll ended at Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:05 pm

No, keep the HP indexes the same as in 2011
11
39%
Yes, limit the HP index at 1.03 for vehicles over 250 HP
17
61%
 
Total votes: 28

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echan
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Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by echan »

Given that AJ beat everyone in a lower HP car, some may believe that the HP index may not be fair at the high HP range (e.g. at some point very high HP doesn't add any more value at CDC events)

Currently, the hp indexes are the following:

Horsepower Multiplier2
100 HP or less = 0.99
101 to 150 HP = 1.00
151 to 200 HP = 1.01
201 to 250 HP = 1.02
251 to 350 HP = 1.03
Over 350 hp = 1.04

Should CDC change the HP index to the following?

Horsepower Multiplier2
100 HP or less = 0.99
101 to 150 HP = 1.00
151 to 200 HP = 1.01
201 to 250 HP = 1.02
Over 250 HP = 1.03

Please vote your opinion.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by D_Eclipse9916 »

echan wrote:Given that AJ beat everyone in a lower HP car, some may believe that the HP index may not be fair at the high HP range (e.g. at some point very high HP doesn't add any more value at CDC events)

Currently, the hp indexes are the following:

Horsepower Multiplier2
100 HP or less = 0.99
101 to 150 HP = 1.00
151 to 200 HP = 1.01
201 to 250 HP = 1.02
251 to 350 HP = 1.03
Over 350 hp = 1.04

Should CDC change the HP index to the following?

Horsepower Multiplier2
100 HP or less = 0.99
101 to 150 HP = 1.00
151 to 200 HP = 1.01
201 to 250 HP = 1.02
Over 250 HP = 1.03

Please vote your opinion.
Yes and no.

The advantage of slicks and/or awd really makes 350whp easily able to put down power and much more of an advantage than 250hp. Street tires and RWD or the "old" tires that Fred and Wade sometimes use make an advantage less so. That said...for this club? I would definitely pull the max to 1.03. Doubt youll be getting many 500AWHP Evos with Fresh A6s every event showing up, and it helps even things up for the "too high horsepower" guys.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by FredK »

I agree with Don. For the tight CDC lots our power doesn't help much. I'm almost as fast in the Miata on skinny tires as the Cobra. Wade and Larry are a blast to watch, but it's not making them go any faster.....Now Cumberland is a different story.

I also think AWD is a huge advantage at your events, and you should allow wings and slicks...

I haven't voted yet though.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Dan133 »

I Was thinking that the r-comp penalty might be a bit high but changing both might swing things too far back the other way. That being said I think that the cobras need some kind of a break as they seem almost unmanageable without r-comps. Any of you Cobra guys want to weigh in?
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by v10climber »

Can we keep the current index system but split it into 251 to 300 and 301 to 350? (says the guy with 299 whp :D )
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

I can only offer a data point for the short wheelbase RWD camp. My supercharged 306 was a touch under 450 rwhp. Without the blower, easily under 300. My car was faster at the end of last year, even at Cumberland, without the blower! I think the 250hp cutoff at 1.03 is more appropriate than what we have now.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by ButtDyno »

FredK wrote:I agree with Don. For the tight CDC lots our power doesn't help much. I'm almost as fast in the Miata on skinny tires as the Cobra. Wade and Larry are a blast to watch, but it's not making them go any faster.....Now Cumberland is a different story.
This makes sense for HG, and maybe Woodbridge, but a lot less for for Bowie and Winchester (mostly Winchester), IMHO.

I think the indexes nicely cover a variety of situations as-is. I mean, does anyone think AJ only won because the index is unfair?
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by hepcatz »

I voted to keep it the same. I do agree with Dan that the r-comp "penalty" is awfully high. Since my driving isn't good enough to counter that, I just run street tires now at CDC events.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by v10climber »

ButtDyno wrote:I think the indexes nicely cover a variety of situations as-is. I mean, does anyone think AJ only won because the index is unfair?
I always was under the impression that AJ won because he's really fast. I mean he's not exactly driving a rocket but yet seems to be very competitive in the ST SCCA class. I may get in trouble for saying this but people seem to get in a fit because a cobra isn't taking the top spot at auto-x events. I know we try our best to even everything out by using an index system but a cobra is just a (not that I would know :D) really difficult car to drive at an auto-x event especially in some of the smaller lots. I hate to say it but maybe the reason the guys driving cobras aren't placing first is because they're not good enough drivers :o ;)

I feel like we should keep the indexes the way they are. 350 whp isn't hard to make on an EVO and guys are doing that with stock turbos so they're still keeping a good amount of spool. I don't remember seeing one at any of the auto-x events but a BSP or SM EVO should be making over 350whp. My STI with just a downpipe made 299 on a custom tune so with the allowances they get in BSP or SM 350 wouldn't be too tough for an EVO and probably achievable for an STI.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by BugBomb »

Yes, it's easy to make 350+ WHP in an EVO or some other modern SCCA-popular vehicle, but those sorts of folks/cars are not regulars at CDC. Normally people build cars like that to compete in a specific SCCA class. We don't see them much and we don't need to consider them in the index at this time. The majority of our high-HP cars are either compensating for severely high curb weights or they are Cobras. In either case, we don't see these vehicles with massive wings and other modifications to help put that power to the ground.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by FredK »

v10climber wrote:I always was under the impression that AJ won because he's really fast. I mean he's not exactly driving a rocket but yet seems to be very competitive in the ST SCCA class. I may get in trouble for saying this but people seem to get in a fit because a cobra isn't taking the top spot at auto-x events. I know we try our best to even everything out by using an index system but a cobra is just a (not that I would know :D) really difficult car to drive at an auto-x event especially in some of the smaller lots. I hate to say it but maybe the reason the guys driving cobras aren't placing first is because they're not good enough drivers :o ;)

I feel like we should keep the indexes the way they are. 350 whp isn't hard to make on an EVO and guys are doing that with stock turbos so they're still keeping a good amount of spool. I don't remember seeing one at any of the auto-x events but a BSP or SM EVO should be making over 350whp. My STI with just a downpipe made 299 on a custom tune so with the allowances they get in BSP or SM 350 wouldn't be too tough for an EVO and probably achievable for an STI.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Ben L »

Wow. Nobody justified the proposed change because Cobras were not coming in first. Where does all that envy and anger come from? I do not know of a single so-called "Cobra guy" who begrudges AJ or anyone else their well deserved victories.

He and the fast small bore guys are a hoot to watch. Pure skill always is.

And before you start doggin' another driver's skills, you may want to think about what its like to drive a super light, short wheelbase, high horsepower, rear wheel drive monster on any CDC lot, without the benefit of such modern conveniences and compensations as AWD and antilock brakes.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Ben L »

Think about it, because with this kind of weak talk, that's about as close as you'll ever come to getting a trick behind the wheel of one.

The point is that, no matter what you drive, that amount of muscle is just not an advantage on CDC lots.

But I am pretty sure that the AWD EVO boys you lust after (who unlike us, don't bother with the CDC kiddie pool) would have a hell of a lot easier task keeping their 350 WHP to the ground than a Cobra.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Imprezive_04 »

This thread has become a bit of nonsense....

Really this only affects Wade (maybe) and Ben. Right? Larry, Jen, and Mike are organizers, Fast Fred is under 350 already and Bishop bought one of those voodoo magic AWD rides. Wade removed the blower so it may or may not affect him next season. So really it doesn't matter....

For the record:
I voted to remove the 1.04 multiplier because since this index was created Wade has out rawed everyone by 2 seconds and fell to 4th or 5th in index.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by FredK »

Who's Wade?
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Ben L »

Doesn't affect me much. I'm never in the hunt for index position, and that's OK with me. But there are several folks who run Cobras, mostly for the fun and spectacle, some not up there with Wade and Fred, who are affected. Sorry for getting a little out of whack. Just could not believe what I was reading. This ain't F1 or anything. Supposed to have fun driving, riding in, and checking out your own and other people's cars, I thought.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

I'm under 350 whp now, so I don't have a dog in this hunt. Regarding Ed's original question, I still feel there's no advantage having over 350 on the lots that CDC uses, so that's how I voted.

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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by eage8 »

I was on the fence about this... and then I looked up on nasioc and the suxass makes 354 wheel hp... even awd, that car isn't making any use of any more hp on cdc courses...

the question isn't "should a 251hp car be the same as a 351hp car?". The questions is "does having more than 350hp really make a difference?...." and the answer is no.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by JoeTR6 »

FWIW, I agree that having over 350 hp doesn't help much on most CDC courses, particularly in a Cobra where the chassis appears to reward skill over full-on power. Some AWD platforms *may* benefit more, but I haven't seen it. I tried Liam's EVO once. Full throttle made it difficult to keep the car on the lot, much less on the proper line. Impressive, but not so helpful for autocross.

We are basically a "run what you brung" club. It's difficult to compare apples to watermelons, but that's what we're trying to do with the index. It's pretty good without undue complication, but may need some tweaking here and there. Yes, it's supposed to be fun, and I think we've stressed too much in the past about the whole index system. Me, I'll be happy if I learn something and get within 5 seconds of FTD.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Jim Harris »

Main point: there is no advantage on a CDC course having in excess of 350 HP. Cumberland or FedEx, yes, but not on a CDC course.

My Vette is is around 375 RWHP. Useless. What matters is what tires I'm running. Or if I had a way to shed 200 pounds.

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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by v10climber »

Well this thread blew up in a hurry. Sorry if I upset anyone with my previous comments. I wasn't trying to "knock" other drivers or imply that people aren't capable of handling higher horsepower cars. I was just trying to promote discussion of the topic and give my opinion and accidentally stepped on some toes on the way. It's difficult to convey ideas over the interwebz sometimes. This is Nick Dunlap btw...
BugBomb wrote:Yes, it's easy to make 350+ WHP in an EVO or some other modern SCCA-popular vehicle, but those sorts of folks/cars are not regulars at CDC. Normally people build cars like that to compete in a specific SCCA class. We don't see them much and we don't need to consider them in the index at this time. The majority of our high-HP cars are either compensating for severely high curb weights or they are Cobras. In either case, we don't see these vehicles with massive wings and other modifications to help put that power to the ground.
I realize that we don't typically see these cars at the CDC events but I was just trying to keep them in mind. If we're just building the index to account for the cars that we typically see at a CDC auto-x then sure I'd agree that we don't need to consider a BSP or SM prepped EVO/STI.
Ben L wrote:Wow. Nobody justified the proposed change because Cobras were not coming in first. Where does all that envy and anger come from? I do not know of a single so-called "Cobra guy" who begrudges AJ or anyone else their well deserved victories.
As stated above many of the cars we have that run regularly in the 350hp+ range are the cobras. I'm not trying to single out cobra drivers but it's one of the only cars I know at CDC events that regularly puts down that kind of power. My car certainly doesn't. I would suspect that this thing got started because somebody in the 350hp+ index suggested removing the higher index. Again, I don't know this but isn't that typically how class changes happen? Someone in said class feels disadvantaged so they want to change it? If that wasn't the case then I'm wrong and I apologize for making that assumption. Oh and envy absolutely but anger not so much. To be honest I could care less what the index is because I'm not a fast enough driver and none of my runs count anyways since I'm typically organizing. I started auto-x because I loved being around car people and hanging out and doing some driving. If you've ever met me in person you'd know that I'm not a very competitive person. Hence why I run with the CDC instead of some of the other clubs in the area.
Ben L wrote:He and the fast small bore guys are a hoot to watch. Pure skill always is.

And before you start doggin' another driver's skills, you may want to think about what its like to drive a super light, short wheelbase, high horsepower, rear wheel drive monster on any CDC lot, without the benefit of such modern conveniences and compensations as AWD and antilock brakes.
Again, I never meant to upset anyone with that comment. I would imagine and have stated already that I think a cobra would be an immensely difficult car to drive at an auto-x event. I guess my point there was do we have anybody who drives a car in the higher horsepower brackets that also drives a car in one of the lower horsepower brackets? Do they consistently run about the same index times? That's about the only way I know of to verify the accuracy of the index system. There is always the driver skill that has to be factored in the equation when you're considering changing the index.
Ben L wrote:Think about it, because with this kind of weak talk, that's about as close as you'll ever come to getting a trick behind the wheel of one.

The point is that, no matter what you drive, that amount of muscle is just not an advantage on CDC lots.

But I am pretty sure that the AWD EVO boys you lust after (who unlike us, don't bother with the CDC kiddie pool) would have a hell of a lot easier task keeping their 350 WHP to the ground than a Cobra.
But what about CDC lots like Winchester or Hylton HS? I would believe that the difference between 250hp and 350hp could come in handy in some of those events. Especially if you've got the powertrain layout and/or tires to put it the ground. Sure I'll admit at Frederick it's absolutely and utterly pointless. I mean I typically opt to drive the wife's JCW mini over my STI. I find it a lot more manageable and fun on the smaller courses (700lbs makes a difference :D). I guess if we're considering the Frederick lot than it probably doesn't make a difference what the top hp index is because the lot is too small to take advantage of it.
Wade Chamberlain wrote:I'm under 350 whp now, so I don't have a dog in this hunt. Regarding Ed's original question, I still feel there's no advantage having over 350 on the lots that CDC uses, so that's how I voted.

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This is the kind of input I was looking for and can really stand behind. If someone who has owned/driven both says that there is no advantage to 350hp over 250hp then that's good enough for me.

Reading through the rest of the posts it seems that people are supporting removing the top hp index which is fine with me. I was just trying to promote discussion and state what I have observed in my 1.5 seasons with the CDC. I guess I'm still letting my 5 years of auto-x in Florida sway my thinking. Down there we ran on runways and had tons of people in the over 350hp group and it definitely made a difference. Oh and sorry for the super long post. I hope I cleared up what I was trying to get at. Please don't beat me up this weekend at the awards dinner
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by FredK »

Knock knock. no knock???

"I hate to say it but maybe the reason the guys driving cobras aren't placing first is because they're not good enough drivers "

I think Larry, Wade, and I may have been a little offended . I drive lots of cars at many different types of racing and I generally try to stay towards the pointy end everywhere. Wade like to be first everywhere, and often is. I've always thought the high HP hit was wrong and it never affected me and said so often.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by gimp »

I voted to keep the old index because I hate Cobra people.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by eage8 »

v10climber wrote:This is the kind of input I was looking for and can really stand behind. If someone who has owned/driven both says that there is no advantage to 350hp over 250hp then that's good enough for me.
I still think you're thinking about the question wrong. The actual question is is having 375hp better than 350hp. Completely disregard 250hp, that's not in the question. Cars that have 350hp in the current system are in the lower index.
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Re: Should Greater than 250 HP be the top Index?

Post by Ben L »

gimp wrote:I voted to keep the old index because I hate Cobra people.
I know, right? They are SO f***ing whiny and selfish.
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