Harry Grove March 17th Results

[BugBomb]

Harry Grove March 17th Results

Let me know if you see any problems with the results, either by posting in this thread or sending me a private message.

[Dan133]

Mike Golden isn't listed in smallbore . By the way- thanks for the incredibly fast turnaround on the results.

[JoeTR6]

Nice driving, Dan.

[Dan133]

Thanks, Joe-the car really seems to be coming together.

[Hobbs5313]

Thanks for posting the results. I was slow but had a blast. Looking forward to the next one. Hopefully, I'll have summer tires on the car by then.

[eage8]

Thanks, Joe-the car really seems to be coming together.

nice job Dan. If I didn't hit that cone you would have beaten me by .02

[Dan133]

Thanks, Joe-the car really seems to be coming together.

nice job Dan. If I didn't hit that cone you would have beaten me by .02

It's going to be a fun year!

[hufflepuff]

I enjoyed the course layout. It was a nice length. the angle of the start gate was a tad funny, making it difficult to get aimed, but maybe that was (intentionally) part of the challenge!

A few comments with regards to safety, which may or may not not be addressable at the Hary Grove lot:

1. At least twice we had competitors almost spin into the B-staging lane
2. A nice blue WRX hatchback almost got broad-sided by a car exiting the course. We may need to emphasize "slowing down" to a safe speed to new drivers as soon as they trip the beams. Perhaps even recommend a 1st gear rolling stop to make sure they have time to watch for pedestrians and potential cross-traffic.
3. some of the course workers were doing a poor job. we may need to do a better job pairing experienced and inexperienced workers. in addition, there was at least one instance of a course worker clearly in the path of an on-course car. no red flag was thrown, and the worker was lucky the car was looking ahead to see them.

I feel CDC typically runs very safe and tidy events, so i hope this season opener is an exception.

[Jim Harris]

That was MY nice blue Subaru, completely stock and two months removed from the showroom, and I was amazed I didn't get creamed.

I'm sure the organizers got the point about safety and will make the needed corrections.

For everyone, though, let's face it: it's great to have laid back events, but we can't be laid back about safety. We're really pretty lucky to have had our eyes opened by the events of the fourth heat with no actual harm done.

Jim

[xph34rt3hr34p3r]

So are we going to account for changes in the HP index? I noticed that a lot of the index classes still show a "6" rating which I thought we voted to do away with...

Also, I noticed that the 2006 STI that won index has a weight index of "5." That means that car is 3500+ pounds. curb weight in 2006 was 3200#. Even Larry's index in the 2008 hatch is listed as a "5" when curb weight should be 3400#.

Something seems a bit off...

[v10climber]

So are we going to account for changes in the HP index? I noticed that a lot of the index classes still show a "6" rating which I thought we voted to do away with...

One of the other organizers will have to chime in to confirm this but i'm pretty certain that the over 350hp "class" is still there however it now has the same index as the "new" over 250 hp class. I'm not sure if the plan is to completely do away with that over 350hp "class" but making the indexes the same was easier than going through and modifying the timing/registration system and the website.

Also, I noticed that the 2006 STI that won index has a weight index of "5." That means that car is 3500+ pounds. curb weight in 2006 was 3200#. Even Larry's index in the 2008 hatch is listed as a "5" when curb weight should be 3400#.

Something seems a bit off...

I can't speak much to the '06 STI. Wikipedia states 3298lbs for the GD series but I'm not sure which year that was and what options it has. It's certainly possible that he is above 3500 lbs with driver but as we don't bring scales or a dyno to the auto-x events we have to go on the "honor system" for weights and hp. Obviously we typically spot when someone is grossly incorrect in stating their hp/weight (3800lb miata anyone?) but for the people that are on the fence between classes we just take their word for it. I can speak a little more clearly for the 08 as that was actually my car. Subaru states 3373 for the '12 hatch which would be a tad lighter than mine. Add in weight for driver and subtract a few pounds because I was a few gallons shy of full on the gas and yeah I would bet it's over 3500 lbs. But the times put down by Larry don't really count as he's an organizer (not to mention course designer )

EDIT: Just checked teh CDC FAQ and looks like weight is without drivers/passengers which means my car is probably right at 3400. That bumps Larry and I down a few places but organizers still aren't counted in the actual results...

That was MY nice blue Subaru, completely stock and two months removed from the showroom, and I was amazed I didn't get creamed.

I'm sure the organizers got the point about safety and will make the needed corrections.

For everyone, though, let's face it: it's great to have laid back events, but we can't be laid back about safety. We're really pretty lucky to have had our eyes opened by the events of the fourth heat with no actual harm done.

Jim

I was working start for most of the day so I wasn't really watching people exiting the finish box. The organizers have a lot to keep them busy throughout the day so I'm not sure if one of the other organizers saw that situation unfold but I know this is the first time I've heard about it. Typically when it's things like exiting the stop box too fast it's isolated to one or two cars so if you mention that to one of the organizers and let us know which car needs to slow it down we can talk to them. We try our best to run a safe and efficient event but it's difficult to catch everything.

[Imprezive_04]

I no longer have a dog in this fight, but Organizers should know the rules:

1DOT approved street tires will have a treadwear rating of 140 or greater
2As measured at the driven wheels
3Curb weight without driver or passenger(s) onboard

Thats copy n paste from the FAQ

[JoeTR6]

One of the other organizers will have to chime in to confirm this but i'm pretty certain that the over 350hp "class" is still there however it now has the same index as the "new" over 250 hp class. I'm not sure if the plan is to completely do away with that over 350hp "class" but making the indexes the same was easier than going through and modifying the timing/registration system and the website.

That's correct. We're trying not to change the meaning of the bar code numbers. When we added the sub-1500# (AKA, Lotus 7) weight class, notice we added it to the end rather than bump them all up.

Also, I noticed that the 2006 STI that won index has a weight index of "5." That means that car is 3500+ pounds. curb weight in 2006 was 3200#. Even Larry's index in the 2008 hatch is listed as a "5" when curb weight should be 3400#.

Something seems a bit off...

We should be going by advertised curb weights. That could get tricky, because I know (for instance) an M Coupe will probably drop below 3000 lbs. if you have race seats and lightweight exhaust. If someone's modded their car, hopefully they will take that into account. They probably just picked the wrong option when registering.

I'm sure the organizers got the point about safety and will make the needed corrections.

For everyone, though, let's face it: it's great to have laid back events, but we can't be laid back about safety. We're really pretty lucky to have had our eyes opened by the events of the fourth heat with no actual harm done.
Jim

Agreed. When it comes to safety, feel free to bust our chops.

[hufflepuff]

It definitely needs to be by actual race weight minus the driver/passenger- that's how i have always interpreted it. Some cars have the potential for enough weight reduction to easily drop them into the next lower index.

[hufflepuff]

We should be going by advertised curb weights. That could get tricky, because I know (for instance) an M Coupe will probably drop below 3000 lbs. if you have race seats and lightweight exhaust. If someone's modded their car, hopefully they will take that into account. They probably just picked the wrong option when registering.

I think it should be by actual race weight minus the driver/passenger- that's how i have always interpreted it. Some cars have the potential for enough weight reduction to easily drop them into the next lower index. Like you mentioned, if i gutted my M3 i would probably drop just into the < 3000 lb bracket, giving me a large advantage (but not as large as finally buying some decent tires...).

[03threefiftyz]

I've always done the index with my car minus me. The car being in the low 2900's now without me...it would make a difference if it were reversed (towards the better for me).

[Sky Render]

That was a fun course, but I agree about the safety thing. I believe part of it was the large number of "noobs," however.

Did anyone take pictures? I brought my camera but was having too much fun hamming it up as the announcer.

[dmyer]

My impressions/observations for what it is worth as a relative newcomer to autocross and CDC...

First off the good news - I really enjoyed running the course Saturday - that was about as much fun as possible on the small Harry Grove lot.

The bad news - that course was too long for the large entry list since all the cars had to be single threaded with only about 1 car/minute completing a run. It is simple math to see why my 3rd heat morning runs were not completed until it was going on 1 PM. I originally intended to stay the entire day for my afternoon runs even though my personal timeframe was tight... but doing the math... it was simply impossible for me to do... I see only 5 runs were actually completed which re-inforces this point.

Maybe in the future if we have that many pre-registered (92?) we should aim to design a slightly shorter course. Not criticism... just my observation.

[Walka]

The 06 sti is a friend of mine. He never really has cared about what class he signs up with CDC in paying attention and just selected the wrong one im positive about that. He doesnt usually get first so this is the first time someone even noticed.

In fact he selected 6 as the hp multiplier. Thats 350whp. He is on the STU tune which i know is 320whp. So that evens out the index of him losing .01 and gaining .01

[Walka]

My impressions/observations for what it is worth as a relative newcomer to autocross and CDC...

First off the good news - I really enjoyed running the course Saturday - that was about as much fun as possible on the small Harry Grove lot.

The bad news - that course was too long for the large entry list since all the cars had to be single threaded with only about 1 car/minute completing a run. It is simple math to see why my 3rd heat morning runs were not completed until it was going on 1 PM. I originally intended to stay the entire day for my afternoon runs even though my personal timeframe was tight... but doing the math... it was simply impossible for me to do... I see only 5 runs were actually completed which re-inforces this point.

Maybe in the future if we have that many pre-registered (92?) we should aim to design a slightly shorter course. Not criticism... just my observation.

Wait your suggesting you would like to have a shorter course if there are more people so you can make time for things? That gives you less autocross for your money! Why would you WANT that! Cancel your other plans.
I also find it funny you are saying you'd like a shorter course at harry grove.

[hepcatz]

Congrats on the season opener! Sorry I missed it, still working on the car. Hopefully ready to go by the next event or two.

[echan]

My impressions/observations for what it is worth as a relative newcomer to autocross and CDC...

First off the good news - I really enjoyed running the course Saturday - that was about as much fun as possible on the small Harry Grove lot.

The bad news - that course was too long for the large entry list since all the cars had to be single threaded with only about 1 car/minute completing a run. It is simple math to see why my 3rd heat morning runs were not completed until it was going on 1 PM. I originally intended to stay the entire day for my afternoon runs even though my personal timeframe was tight... but doing the math... it was simply impossible for me to do... I see only 5 runs were actually completed which re-inforces this point.

Maybe in the future if we have that many pre-registered (92?) we should aim to design a slightly shorter course. Not criticism... just my observation.

The normal run time at Harry Grove with a full field is 38 to 43 seconds. As you saw, there was a large patch of dirt/mud, which made the course designer work around it (even having to sweep out a path to run thru). In the end, he was left with either a course that was too short (taking out a loop) or too long (keeping a loop). When the average course time drops below 38 seconds, the course isn't as fun and we get more complaints. The result was that we had to only give 5 runs. Yes, we did the math and the head organizer radioed the registration table to ask how large the field was. That is why Mike said in the driver's meeting that most likely we were only going to give 2 runs in the afternoon.

Also keep in mind that with 92 on the reservation list, we would normally get 74 at the event. We had 81 (due to the good weather and the first event). Under normal conditions, we can hold a field of up to 85, but the dirt caused some problems. In addition, we had many rusty participants that spun out, taking even more time than normal.

I understand your comment, and we will try to be better. Keep in mind, that we can try to limit the field smaller, but this may result in higher entry fees. We try to give the best event possible while remaining as affordable as possible.

Ed

[dmyer]

The normal run time at Harry Grove with a full field is 38 to 43 seconds. As you saw, there was a large patch of dirt/mud, which made the course designer work around it (even having to sweep out a path to run thru). In the end, he was left with either a course that was too short (taking out a loop) or too long (keeping a loop). When the average course time drops below 38 seconds, the course isn't as fun and we get more complaints. The result was that we had to only give 5 runs. Yes, we did the math and the head organizer radioed the registration table to ask how large the field was. That is why Mike said in the driver's meeting that most likely we were only going to give 2 runs in the afternoon.

Also keep in mind that with 92 on the reservation list, we would normally get 74 at the event. We had 81 (due to the good weather and the first event). Under normal conditions, we can hold a field of up to 85, but the dirt caused some problems. In addition, we had many rusty participants that spun out, taking even more time than normal.

I understand your comment, and we will try to be better. Keep in mind, that we can try to limit the field smaller, but this may result in higher entry fees. We try to give the best event possible while remaining as affordable as possible.

Ed

Thanks for the explantion as I understand what you had to deal with better now! The course was definately fun and I guess with all things being considered - you made the right call. Hopefully we will get a good gully washer before the next event.

Dan

[JoeTR6]

It's pretty hard sometimes to know how long the course will be when designing it. Originally when we saw how extensive the dirt was, Larry thought we'd have to move the start/stop to a completely different part of the lot. After changing back to the original, we were a little late testing the course and it was longer than we'd normally like. Overall, I thought it was a fun, not difficult to follow layout. In hindsight, I think we should have pulled in the turn and stop garage near the grassy bank.

Hopefully we will get a good gully washer before the next event.

If it doesn't rain before then, we should bring an extra generator and a power washer. We could at least reduce the size of that patch a bit.

[Walka]

Are there water taps available to use? I'd assume even a gas power washer your still not going to have any water on hand to wash it away.