Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Parking lots and traffic cones.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by Dan133 »

soviet wrote:So my turbine wheel snapped off its shaft :)
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Bummer about the turbine wheel but I am now happy that I did not drive your car even though I said I would. I would have been really unhappy if your car had broken when I was driving it. Hoping you get if fixed for the next AX in Winchester. Good Luck
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by mjyeams »

Hey guys, I'm a CDC noob. When/where will the results for this event be posted?

Thanks!
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by v10climber »

soviet wrote:So my turbine wheel snapped off its shaft :)
Oh no!!! Where did the turbine wheel go?

I guess that rules out a bad wastegate huh? Did it happen on the ride home? It sounded like you were making some boost as you headed out of the parking lot. That would also explain the smoke...
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by JoeTR6 »

Mike was away from home this weekend. He should have the raw results already and work his Google-foo by tomorrow.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by TommySalami »

Fun course yesterday

Here was my best run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SzWHnWE ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by wrathe74 »

mjyeams wrote:Hey guys, I'm a CDC noob. When/where will the results for this event be posted?

Thanks!
Mike has been doing an awesome job getting them into GDocs and making them available, however I had not updated our site and I apologize for the delay.
As Mike updates the GDoc with results from events, it will show up here.

The CDC Results page has been updated with 2012 results now.

If you want to see last years results, it is still available on GDocs, there is a link on the 2012 results page.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by hepcatz »

Thanks Mike & Jason for the quick results as always!
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by soviet »

Video of turbo fail - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RruN0dZmBgE
Dan133 wrote:Bummer about the turbine wheel but I am now happy that I did not drive your car even though I said I would. I would have been really unhappy if your car had broken when I was driving it. Hoping you get if fixed for the next AX in Winchester. Good Luck
Haha Dan, yeah, Mike feels bad now. But its a defect in the turbo and no one's fault (other than Borg Warner QA control). I'm working on getting it replaced. They are out of stock everywhere so it may be months before I get one. I might just run it N/A in the meantime, but we'll see.
v10climber wrote:Oh no!!! Where did the turbine wheel go?

I guess that rules out a bad wastegate huh? Did it happen on the ride home? It sounded like you were making some boost as you headed out of the parking lot. That would also explain the smoke...
It rattled around in the exhaust and eventually found it's way out. I do really have a free-flowing exhaust, huh :D
The sound was the engine vacuum spinning the compressor wheel. The smoke was oil coming out of the turbo exhaust seal. There is virtually no damage anywhere.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by bearda »

That sucks big time. At least the damage was fairly contained, though.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by AJ_RDR_Civic »

My vids

Civic- 43.953
http://youtu.be/Ewv8m84LkTc

Mini- 46.2xx. Definitely left a lot of time out there. Way underestimated the JCW Mini! Thanks Caitlin for the drive!
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by kbuva06 »

where'd the thread go that AJ started with all of the clubs' schedules for this season?
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by echan »

kbuva06 wrote:where'd the thread go that AJ started with all of the clubs' schedules for this season?
The thread was removed due to another club advertising their events. The CDC policy is that we allow other clubs to post their events provided that they do not conflict with our schedule and that the club also is open for CDC to post our events on their site. We currently have such an agreement with BMW, and you'll see each other's posts in each of the club's forum. So when another club posts but provides no method for us to post to their participants, we decided to pull the thread.

Although we allow people to post some information about other events, we do not allow direct advertising, unless previously approved. We realized that this might happen at some point and don't wish to limit speech, but we also want to be on a level playing field.

As a side note, we will also remove a thread when the language is inappriopriate or becomes too negative towards other individuals or organizations.

Hope everyone understands.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by kbuva06 »

^^^

i see. is there anyway we can repost that information in a sticky or locked thread? i feel like it was very valuable information, and i for one would reference it a lot in order to see what events are upcoming across the board.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by AJ_RDR_Civic »

PM sent kbuva06
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by hepcatz »

I have a Google calendar of events if that would be helpful for anyone.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by kbuva06 »

hepcatz wrote:I have a Google calendar of events if that would be helpful for anyone.

i do like your google calendar as well. just liked the list version as well cause you can compare dates across clubs and get a broad view of upcoming things.


AJ, thanks for the message. Really appreciate you putting that list together (and even updating the new SCCA double event in June!)
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by NoVA_STi »

I had a great time at this meet and wasn't going to mention this, but I keep thinking that I might have similar problems at the upcoming meet, so here goes:

I had an issue with being called OC numerous times. During the morning session, it was immediately apparent to me the first two runs that I was OC. By the third run, I was pretty confident I nailed it, only to be called OC again. Between my first set of runs and second set, I spent ALL my time watching other drivers, as it was bugging me that I was called OC on my last morning run. I did not sleep, sit, or socialize. I was trying to find where on the course I may have been making mistakes, and the more I studied other drivers, the more I thought I was following the course properly on the third run. During the afternoon session, my first run was called OC again. I notified Ed before my last two runs and another organizer (sorry, I forget your name..I got a lot of names that day) who was nearby volunteered to ride with me. I ran the same lines I'd run on the third pass and wasn't called OC. The organizer then asked me if I wanted to do the last run with him in the car...I opted to have him stay in the passenger seat. Following the same lines that I'd been running for all but the two first runs, I completed the run cleanly.

So, I only had two timed runs for all of the day, which is pretty disappointing (but I still had fun learning everything about autocross). When the results were posted, I also saw that the last two clean runs were marked as the 4th and 5th runs, and that nothing was recorded for the last run. I'm not sure if this was a problem with the bar codes (the reader wouldn't work through my windshield for the morning session...I move it to outside the window between sessions to ease the pain of the organizers); not that it mattered...no matter how you hash it, I still only got two timed runs -- Ran 6, there were 2 where I knew that I OC'd, and two that I ran cleanly and got a time for each, but 2 where the OC calls were highly questionable. Sure, I'm new to the game, but I'm intelligent enough to know when something isn't quite right.

So my question is, about the OC calls, I've a very strong assumption that I wasn't OC on my middle runs. When one of the members has such an issue, what's the process to resolve this? While this is fun, I'm not happy with 1/3rd of my runs being called OC when they weren't; and again, I'm discounting the first two runs.

Another question; bar codes that can't be scanned through the windshield and have to be manually inputted, does this problem have the tendency to play havoc with the rest of the runs?

TIA for any answers!
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by echan »

NoVA_STi wrote:I had a great time at this meet and wasn't going to mention this, but I keep thinking that I might have similar problems at the upcoming meet, so here goes:

I had an issue with being called OC numerous times. During the morning session, it was immediately apparent to me the first two runs that I was OC. By the third run, I was pretty confident I nailed it, only to be called OC again. Between my first set of runs and second set, I spent ALL my time watching other drivers, as it was bugging me that I was called OC on my last morning run. I did not sleep, sit, or socialize. I was trying to find where on the course I may have been making mistakes, and the more I studied other drivers, the more I thought I was following the course properly on the third run. During the afternoon session, my first run was called OC again. I notified Ed before my last two runs and another organizer (sorry, I forget your name..I got a lot of names that day) who was nearby volunteered to ride with me. I ran the same lines I'd run on the third pass and wasn't called OC. The organizer then asked me if I wanted to do the last run with him in the car...I opted to have him stay in the passenger seat. Following the same lines that I'd been running for all but the two first runs, I completed the run cleanly.

So, I only had two timed runs for all of the day, which is pretty disappointing (but I still had fun learning everything about autocross). When the results were posted, I also saw that the last two clean runs were marked as the 4th and 5th runs, and that nothing was recorded for the last run. I'm not sure if this was a problem with the bar codes (the reader wouldn't work through my windshield for the morning session...I move it to outside the window between sessions to ease the pain of the organizers); not that it mattered...no matter how you hash it, I still only got two timed runs -- Ran 6, there were 2 where I knew that I OC'd, and two that I ran cleanly and got a time for each, but 2 where the OC calls were highly questionable. Sure, I'm new to the game, but I'm intelligent enough to know when something isn't quite right.

So my question is, about the OC calls, I've a very strong assumption that I wasn't OC on my middle runs. When one of the members has such an issue, what's the process to resolve this? While this is fun, I'm not happy with 1/3rd of my runs being called OC when they weren't; and again, I'm discounting the first two runs.

Another question; bar codes that can't be scanned through the windshield and have to be manually inputted, does this problem have the tendency to play havoc with the rest of the runs?

TIA for any answers!

CDC relies heavily on our workers to call OC. In many cases, the timing tent is not able to see where the car went off course. However, people are not perfect and mistakes happen. We don't like our participants to have a bad experience. To help make up for this incident, please see me at the next event you attend, and we will give you free entry at you next event.

Sorry for the problem.

Ed
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by JoeTR6 »

NoVA_STi wrote:bar codes that can't be scanned through the windshield and have to be manually inputted, does this problem have the tendency to play havoc with the rest of the runs?
The bar code scanner acts just like a keyboard, so in theory manual entry shouldn't matter at all. In practice, we may enter the wrong driver number for a particular run, but that won't affect other runs. In addition, if someone has extra runs or there are runs showing for someone that wasn't at the event, we'll know. When this happens, we look at the order in which runs occurred and can usually figure out who a particular run belongs to. The index helps to associate a run with a particular car as well. So it's pretty unlikely a misread bar code or manual entry will matter. We did have some issues with not getting starts that day, and a few people didn't get times for a run.

Reading bar codes through the windshield usually works, but sometimes it takes a while or just doesn't scan. Some cars have different tint levels, more scratches/dings or whatever. I've noticed BMWs can really cause problems for some reason. I've gone to putting a driver number sticker on my helmet and an index on my magnetic numbers. If you cover the sticker with clear mailing tape, it should last at least a season. Some people put them on a flash card and keep them in a door pocket. We have some spare magnetic sheet that I'll bring to the next several events so people can make up something that will stick on a door/roof.

If you're called off course and don't know where, that can be frustrating. I've blown all 3 morning runs because I was missing a single gate. A worker could be equally confused. If you let the timing tent know, we'll keep an eye on your next run and try to make sure it's being called correctly. Having an instructor was a good idea. With Bowie, the lower part of the lot forces us to rely on the corner workers.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by Ben L »

Well, that's a nice gesture by Ed. But here's the thing. In this sport, which has the cool feature that the drivers are the workers, every little once in a while, there's a bad call. Since nobody's perfect, that inherent margin for error tends to affect everyone more or less the same over time. Sort of like lightning or shark attack. My advice is to suck it up, especially in a fun-oriented club like CDC. Your fellow racers will respect you more for good sportsmanship. Who knows, you could be the beneficiary of a bad call down the line.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by echan »

Ben L wrote:Well, that's a nice gesture by Ed. But here's the thing. In this sport, which has the cool feature that the drivers are the workers, every little once in a while, there's a bad call. Since nobody's perfect, that inherent margin for error tends to affect everyone more or less the same over time. Sort of like lightning or shark attack. My advice is to suck it up, especially in a fun-oriented club like CDC. Your fellow racers will respect you more for good sportsmanship. Who knows, you could be the beneficiary of a bad call down the line.
I understand Ben's view that there's an inherent margin of error, but CDC needs to focus on good customer service. Most of us would have some degree of fustration if incorrectly called OC. The club can't turn back time, and as you pointed out, we probably can't do much about incorrect calls by workers (more than tell participants to be careful on their calls). What the club can do is to try to treat our participants with some understanding and try to "make good" on the error in customer service.

Mistakes happen, often out of our control. They happen at resturants, and retail stores. And they happen at CDC. When mistakes happen at a good resturant or retall store, they bend over backwards to "make it right" for the customer. Often a restuarant will give you a free meal or dessert if they messed up. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. What matters is that overall experience for the customer is a good one.

We really aren't much different. If one of our participants had a bad experience for some reason, and we can somehow change the negative to a positive with a free pass, we will do it. After all, people won't attend if they have a bad experience, and even worse they will tell 11 people of their bad experience. If we can make their experience a good one, they may be more likely to return and possibly tell 2 other people of their good experience.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by Areddi »

Typically an off-course is immediately noticeable. If I am working a corner, and I have any question in my mind of whether the car was off-course, I will always confer with who is working the station with me before I call it in. I definitely have had it happen to me before, and it is frustrating when you know you were right, and that the corner worker was quick to judge. I always do my best to be accurate, and I bet that most people do as well. Props to Ed and the club for stepping up and making things right.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by NoVA_STi »

Ed, you're on-point about looking at this from the provider/customer perspective. I'm on the fence about accepting your offer of free entry, though. I think that's going to cause respect issues. If that's the case, I'll pass. I'm a troubleshooter by nature and tend to want to fix what I could be doing wrong (or fix what others might be doing wrong that might affect me). I just want to learn the sport and course and come home with a smile on my face and tire stench on my clothes, not ruffle any feathers.
Ben L wrote:Well, that's a nice gesture by Ed. But here's the thing. In this sport, which has the cool feature that the drivers are the workers, every little once in a while, there's a bad call. Since nobody's perfect, that inherent margin for error tends to affect everyone more or less the same over time. Sort of like lightning or shark attack. My advice is to suck it up, especially in a fun-oriented club like CDC. Your fellow racers will respect you more for good sportsmanship. Who knows, you could be the beneficiary of a bad call down the line.
Responses like this is exactly why I was hesitant to mention the issue in the first place. I don't know anyone personally within the organization...I'm new. New members who are new to autocross will have large sumes of learning to do. My first post was an attempt to try to learn more of the processes involved with coursework and disputes. I feel my questions/comments/concerns are legit...trust me, I'm my own worse critic, otherwise, I'd have not waited until now to post my concerns.

I realize that there will be errors. If it were miscalls on cones, I'd still have a time to work with and I'd probably "suck it up", but with OC, I get NO time. That being said, this is not a sportsmanship issue, and I'm not worried about gaining respect of other racers, as I've never had an issue with respect in my 45 years of life. I don't consider this to be whining. I think my first post on this was tactful enough. I didn't mention the issue to get free entry. I'm not competing for points. Joining the club is a way for me to do things I couldn't otherwise do on the street. I mentioned my issue so I could understand what was going on and how to deal with it if it happened again. Yes, there will be mistakes in running events, but I believe we should all be highlighting mistakes so that we learn from them so that mistakes are lessened. If I make a bad call as a course worker, I'll never know it was wrong if someone (worker or driver) doesn't point out the error. But good sportsmanship isn't about keeping your mouth shut so as to not cause grief. And if anyone has sucked it up, it has been me...it happened and I can't change the past, but I think it's doing the club as a whole a disservice if we "sucked up" what could be legitimate issues; you may not even know there's an issue worth solving if it isn't mentioned.

How many of you wouldn't discuss OC calls with an organizer if you had a strong suspicion that two back-to-back runs weren't OC, and had an instructor ride with you to verify your coursework? As I said above, I'm not competing for points, but it's difficult to determine progress if I look at my day's times and only see two times listed (when I should actually be seeing four).
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

My recommendation to anybody that gets an OC called on them and has no idea where it was....dial it back a notch on the next run, pay particular attention to looking ahead, and focus on the course. If you're still called OC, go talk to the timing tent and see if they'll ask the course workers (over the radio) where you went off. Sometimes this is tricky at CDC since they don't do a normal grid (cars are constantly pulled forward), but if you hurry, you should have time.

Bad calls suck, but they happen.
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Re: Next Autox Bowie 6/2/12

Post by v10climber »

I'm a little hesitant to respond to this thread for fear of coming off the wrong way but here goes...
NoVA_STi wrote:Ed, you're on-point about looking at this from the provider/customer perspective. I'm on the fence about accepting your offer of free entry, though. I think that's going to cause respect issues. If that's the case, I'll pass. I'm a troubleshooter by nature and tend to want to fix what I could be doing wrong (or fix what others might be doing wrong that might affect me). I just want to learn the sport and course and come home with a smile on my face and tire stench on my clothes, not ruffle any feathers.
I wouldn't worry about respect within the group of organizers . At the CDC we tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and hope individuals don't take advantage of that. If it becomes a problem we'll have to re-evaluate our stance but up until this point I don't think it's been an issue (at least that I know of). If you really felt like you were shorted runs because of incorrect worker calls then it's best to bring it up at the event as soon as it happens so we can talk to course workers and take care of the situation on-site. It's been my experience that drivers make mistakes more often than course workers but that doesn't mean a course worker wasn't making an incorrect call during your runs.
NoVA_STi wrote:Responses like this is exactly why I was hesitant to mention the issue in the first place. I don't know anyone personally within the organization...I'm new. New members who are new to autocross will have large sumes of learning to do. My first post was an attempt to try to learn more of the processes involved with coursework and disputes. I feel my questions/comments/concerns are legit...trust me, I'm my own worse critic, otherwise, I'd have not waited until now to post my concerns.
I don't think Ben was trying to be negative. He's a really nice guy and very supportive of new participants. The point he is trying to make is that people make mistakes. Sometimes it's the corner workers and sometimes it's the drivers. I know I've seen new (and experienced) autocrossers adamantly claim that they are on-course and then continue to miss the same gate. This autocrossing thing is a difficult thing to master. If I'm understanding correctly you had your last run in the morning and your first run in the afternoon called off-course when you believe you were on-course. When the off-course runs are split between the morning and afternoon sessions I tend to believe that the driver is just confused somehow. When I rode with you on your 5th and 6th runs you seemed to know where you were going but you were also very focused on driving the right line to make sure you didn't go off course. That amount of focus could have been the difference. If you say you ran the same course during the 4th and 5th runs then I don't have any reason not to believe you and assume that the course workers made an incorrect call.
--Nick D
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