Capital Driving Club Discussion Forum

I saw in the FRS/BRZ forum the idea of creating a class/series (like the small bore class). Normally, we don't create and new class for one type of car, but we can''t ignore that FRS/BRZ's are very populated in each event.

Let us know your ideas.

1. What should the limitations be (forced induction, tires, suspension, etc)?
2. Should other cars similar to performance also be allowed (cars of similar weight and power)?
3. Any other factors?

Ed

I love the idea, and we have been kicking it around on our forum like Ed said. I have two thoughts on whether something like this should be exclusive, or open to additional cars:

Thought 1: It should be open to all cars of a similar type, using CS/STX as a guide-line for which cars can play, but not dead on. No-forced induction, no-AWD , street tires, anything else goes.

Thought 2: Keep it only FT-86 twins. I am leaning more in this direction. We have a healthy competition on our forum, and many new guys who are learning. The usual candidates take the top time every week at CDC, and even with indexing, still stomp everyone else. This is not a problem, but it would be cool to have a place to play and compare ourselves without having to worry about Cobras, fully prepped Miatas, and STI's, which are going to stomp us anyway. Similar to small bore, where those guys can compete against each other and still look at the top people, but not feel like they have nothing to compete for.

I would suggest:
Cars allowed: FT-86 twins (FR-S and BRZ) [If other cars are considered similar type of cars, front engine, RWD, no roadsters(must have a "back-seat"); examples: RX-8, Genesis Coupe, others of similar weight/power/drive configuration]
Forced Induction: Not allowed(unless factory if other cars are considered: i.e. 2.0T Gen Coupe, rumored smaller Nissan Z that would likely fit in here [Trying to be future-minded])
Tires: Street Tires only
Suspension: Anything goes

Would run similar to small-bore, where it is another box to check on the reg form, so it doesn't hurt anyone not playing in it, and also does not affect overall club points. Would be a self-contained thing to give another group of people a place to compete.

I am leaning toward restricting it to only Twins, but I would like to hear an argument for other cars if someone has thoughts on that? Also thoughts on my proposal?

My car might fit in that category pretty good. It is ~2700lbs, 1.9L 140hp, Front engine, rear drive. Street tires and suspension are okay with me.

I'm down about 60hp, I could possibly toss an M52 motor in my car which would put it at 190hp. Might bring it closer to the twins but only if motor swaps would be allowed.

dscherpf wrote:I'm down about 60hp, I could possibly toss an M52 motor in my car which would put it at 190hp. Might bring it closer to the twins but only if motor swaps would be allowed.

lol. Ouch. AND he has a back seat

Another angle you could possibly consider is to just use STX class. Any cars and modifications legal for that class are eligible.

BugBomb wrote:Another angle you could possibly consider is to just use STX class. Any cars and modifications legal for that class are eligible.

Not a bad idea. That kinda ties into the whole should it be a spec class like small bore and be open to those who fit within the constraints, or should it be specific to a single car model(twins)? Ultimately noone wants to create a lot of extra work for the organizers, just another check box and another spreadsheet for fun, no indexing changes. The real question is, if this type of thing existed, is there interest from non-twin owners in playing, or if noone outside the twin-owners cares, then just keep it to twins only?

BugBomb wrote:Another angle you could possibly consider is to just use STX class. Any cars and modifications legal for that class are eligible.

Mike, you're ruining Alex's plan for making a class where he doesn't have to compete against the mini.

I like this class. If it was open to STX cars Caitlin and I would totally run the mini in it except for the fact that we're organizers so our times don't count anyways

The upside to using the STX classification is that it's a well-defined set of rules. HOWEVER, there are multiple reasons why the CDC doesn't use SCCA classing. Without going into all the reasons there are things that would eliminate some FRS/BRS cars for stupid reasons. Like that guy who has a carbon fiber hood that is actually heavier than the stock hood. Definitely not STX legal. But does that mean he shouldn't be allowed in the FRS/BRS class? You could set rules to keep with the spirit of STX though. Proposed rules below.

Intake up to the throttle body and exhaust is unrestricted
ECU tuning is unrestricted
Street tires only (treadwear > 200?)
Suspension is unrestricted
Wheels/tires unrestricted (alternately could impose a tire width limit like for ST* in SCCA)
No removal of interior parts. Replacement allowed providing they have no performance benefit
No aero allowed (aftermarket trim bits allowed... stuff like front lips, side skirts, lip spoilers, etc. Basically non-functional stuff)

Comments, questions, concerns?

I like CDC because they don't use SCCA rules/classes.

Align with smallbore rules and do 'smallbore' and 'mediumbore'... than later you could add 'bigbore' for boost/bigger motors.

Smallbore rules are wide open but nobody does anything beyond your ruleset except a little weight loss.

EDIT: I am posting in this thread becuase I would hope to trade drives with one of you

CaitieD wrote:

BugBomb wrote:Another angle you could possibly consider is to just use STX class. Any cars and modifications legal for that class are eligible.

Mike, you're ruining Alex's plan for making a class where he doesn't have to compete against the mini.

LOL

v10climber wrote:I like this class. If it was open to STX cars Caitlin and I would totally run the mini in it except for the fact that we're organizers so our times don't count anyways

The upside to using the STX classification is that it's a well-defined set of rules. HOWEVER, there are multiple reasons why the CDC doesn't use SCCA classing. Without going into all the reasons there are things that would eliminate some FRS/BRS cars for stupid reasons. Like that guy who has a carbon fiber hood that is actually heavier than the stock hood. Definitely not STX legal. But does that mean he shouldn't be allowed in the FRS/BRS class? You could set rules to keep with the spirit of STX though. Proposed rules below.

Intake up to the throttle body and exhaust is unrestricted
ECU tuning is unrestricted
Street tires only (treadwear > 200?)
Suspension is unrestricted
Wheels/tires unrestricted (alternately could impose a tire width limit like for ST* in SCCA)
No removal of interior parts. Replacement allowed providing they have no performance benefit
No aero allowed (aftermarket trim bits allowed... stuff like front lips, side skirts, lip spoilers, etc. Basically non-functional stuff)

Comments, questions, concerns?

I like this idea as well. Stuff like the carbon fiber hood is not something we care about, and I think what you laid out is good. Basically this means, reasonable mods, nothing nit-picky that needs to be policed. Find a good name for the class, and allow all cars which would be allowed in STX to come and play

I'll re-iterate the point that's been made here a few times (of course, my opinion only): we don't run SCCA classes for a reason. Can you argue that the CDC classes favor certain cars? Sure you could.That being said, the simplicity of the CDC classes is what makes them beautiful. As soon as we start adding a bunch of additional rules around this, it's only a matter of time until things go to chaos.

I can see the conversations now:

"So and so has a magical frame brace on their car and shouldn't be elligible"
"Why can't I be elligible if all I have is a D-shaped steering wheel"
"This person has a magic shift knob that makes them 4 seconds faster a run"


Okay, so I may be blowing things out of proportion a bit, but you see my point. Nick absolutely has the right idea (who cares about the hood, even if it was 10 lbs lighter than stock...I'd be 10lbs lighter if I'd quit eating cheeseburgers). I'd add in that we shouldn't care about weight reduction, either. So, can't we just simplify this back to Alex's original comments: Twins only, Any suspension (or frame supports, etc.), no FI, street tires. Then allow the indexes to seperate folks out on weight and power?

I'd think that what we want to do is create a really fun enviornment for our FRS/BRZ folks to compete in (17 at the last event was STAGGERING). Sure, some people will prep like crazy, but firmly monitoring people's mods has never been in our business and in my opinion, shouldn't be.

EDIT: Thinking more on this, if we want to have it open to more cars, I would still avoid connecting ourselves to the SCCA classes, and would rather go with a range: X weight - Y weight; X hp - Yhp, Any Suspension, Street Tires.

If you want them/us to have a class I'd be for letting them do whatever they want to the car short of forced induction and keep them on street tires. They seem to like to do lots of mods, most don't make 'em faster, and a big class of pimped out twins would be fun. Mine is staying RCS.

Fred

Twins only is easy, and I like it. There is a positive response to that too on our forum. I just want to make sure people don't get mad that there is a special check box and "series" just for Twins, but with the numbers were seeing, I think it is justified.

So lets bring it around again:
-Twins
-No forced induction/motor swap
-Street tires
-Anything else goes
-Treated like Small Bore, not required, and has no bearing on club points overall in any way, just for fun

I wanna play too!

If ever the RX8 had a kindred spirit, it's the twins.

just nothing FWD...
...or German/British
...or turbocharged
...or Red with black stripes
...or piloted by Caitlin Dunlap

dscherpf wrote:I like CDC because they don't use SCCA rules/classes.

Ditto.... I like CDC just as it is because it does not have a zillion classes and rules... the KISS formula works for me. I already run plenty of SCCA rules events... I come here because I like the run what ya brung attitude with simple rules, the people and of course... the hot sausages for lunch!

this really doesn't concern me, but curious why all the push for just street tires? why not index the tires like you do in small bore. all in all i think index favors street tires anyway. so if someone wants to spend the money on stickies, let them and still let them compete.

also, think a "medium bore" class would be nice. just for the plain fact that you'll have more competitors and more people/drivers involved. using scca's cs list is a good start. don't get all worked up over the scca thing. just saying that their list of comparable cars grouped together for cs is a good start.

Nathan Atkins wrote: just nothing FWD...
...or German/British
...or turbocharged
...or Red with black stripes
...or piloted by Caitlin Dunlap

CaitieD wrote:

Nathan Atkins wrote: just nothing FWD...
...or German/British
...or turbocharged
...or Red with black stripes
...or piloted by Caitlin Dunlap

If we don't limit the series to only FRS/BRZ, why not allow British cars (and Caitlin)? I figure if this becomes the medium bore that the TR6 would fit perfectly in this series!

phranquelynn wrote:this really doesn't concern me, but curious why all the push for just street tires? why not index the tires like you do in small bore. all in all i think index favors street tires anyway. so if someone wants to spend the money on stickies, let them and still let them compete.

also, think a "medium bore" class would be nice. just for the plain fact that you'll have more competitors and more people/drivers involved. using scca's cs list is a good start. don't get all worked up over the scca thing. just saying that their list of comparable cars grouped together for cs is a good start.

The demographic for owners of these cars is people 21-35 (and Fred) and for most of us, this is our only car. Along with that, come the disposable income component of affording slicks. Many of us have separate tires for autocross, but the logistics of just slapping them on and driving to an event is much easier than having to trailer in a set of slicks, when many don't own a trailer or a house to store it. I think the younger crowd is drawn to street tires because of this. Also, SCCA has been a drop in attendance in Stock nationally because of people wanting to run in the ST classes so they don't have to worry about slicks, which is why they have the Stock to "Street" thing that they're looking into.

So let's give it some more time for thoughts and comments, but the guys on the ft86 forum are game for a Twins only option. Can anyone comment on if this would be a large amount of work for the organizers?

The preference appears to be:
-Twins
-Street Tires
-No forced induction/engine swaps
-Anything else goes

Name proposals for the class?
I like: Spec FT-86

Name proposal? .........Fred's class. Ah, I crack myself up. You silly kids.

It could be a toyota RWD class. That would be fine with me.

Just saying...

Areddi wrote:
The demographic for owners of these cars is people 21-35 (and Fred)

I drove one of these Toybaru's a couple weeks ago at Dover in RTR, fun car. Maybe I'll jump in again at DC to run with Fred