PAX Results

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BugBomb
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PAX Results

Post by BugBomb »

CDC holds a niche in the region of being a fun auto-x club with a fairly simple and lenient index system. Many of our participants are not interested in SCCA's index system, but there are some that would like to have the option of using it, myself included. We have attempted to include PAX in our results before with very limited success. However, our results reporting has evolved quite a bit over the last few years. It recently occurred to me that I could add PAX results to our current results with very little effort. As an experiment, I took the last event's results and entered a few pax classes for some of the cars (link below). I really like that you can also click on the PAX class column and see the times grouped by class. I also added a column that averages the times for CDC index and PAX, just for fun.

Here is what it looks like applied to the last event.

Although this was just an experiment, we are considering adding this to the results going forward. I believe we can easily make it so anyone who wants to add a PAX class at registration can just select their class from a drop-down menu. Anyone that is not interested can leave that field blank. Also, if anyone decides they want to add their PAX class later, it is really simple for me to add it at any time. The PAX results will not be a championship class. No points will be awarded and it will not be policed or even supported directly by CDC. If anyone wants to join but doesn't know where their car should be, there are plenty of eager participants that would be happy to help them classify their car.

What do you guys think?
Mike M
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Re: PAX Results

Post by Areddi »

I don't know a great deal about how PAX is calculated, I need to do more research. As a person who is starting to get into SCCA, I probably need to learn. I like this idea, because it is similar to the other proposed ideas as of late. It's an extra column in the results for those who want/care about it, and does not affect anyone who chooses not to participate.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by gimp »

Areddi wrote:I don't know a great deal about how PAX is calculated, I need to do more research. As a person who is starting to get into SCCA, I probably need to learn. I like this idea, because it is similar to the other proposed ideas as of late. It's an extra column in the results for those who want/care about it, and does not affect anyone who chooses not to participate.
PAX is the result of a lot of work by a guy named Rick Ruth.

http://home.comcast.net/~paxrtp/rtp2013.html
This Index was developed by Rick Ruth and reflects study of results from well over 500 nationwide Solo events including, the Tire Rack® Solo National Championships, National Tour, Alabama Region, Atlanta Region, Chicago Region, California Sports Car Club, Central Florida Region, Equipe Rapide (Florida & Texas), Great Lakes Solo Series, Hawaii Region, Houston Region, Midwest Divisional Series, Milwaukee Region, Minnesota Autosports Club, New England Region, Northwest Region, Northern New Jersey Region, Oregon Region, Philadelphia Region, Rocky Mountain Series, San Francisco Region, San Diego Region, South Jersey Region, St. Louis Region, Tri-State Sports Car Council, Texas Region, Washington DC Region, Wisconsin Autocrossers Inc., and many, many others
He has years and years of data comprised from events all over the country. Basically, you look up your pax number, and multiply it by your time. It's intended to put everyone on an even playing field, and is generally pretty accurate.
--Paul Przyborski
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Re: PAX Results

Post by yardy8301 »

Hmm, this may show me a better comparison from my stock car times in previous autox's to my current times. I am game. Last autox (and more than likely all future autox) I would be in STS, all previous would be ES.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by v10climber »

Areddi wrote:I don't know a great deal about how PAX is calculated, I need to do more research. As a person who is starting to get into SCCA, I probably need to learn. I like this idea, because it is similar to the other proposed ideas as of late. It's an extra column in the results for those who want/care about it, and does not affect anyone who chooses not to participate.
Pax is actually really simple and a well-develop system. All you need to know is which SCCA class your car falls into (which can be the tough part). For your car (since it's a stock FRS) it's a C-stock car on street tires. So you take the CS index (.834) and you multiply it by the WDCR SCCA street tire index (.975) which gives you an overall pax index of .813. Multiply your times by that time and you're done.
--Nick D
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Re: PAX Results

Post by ericw »

I'm not STS legal but I'm definitely not prepared to DP. Which is why I don't go to SCCA events and pax doesn't work for me. You can leave mine blank or use DP I don't really care.

"so and so beat me in the index but not pax..." :roll:
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Re: PAX Results

Post by BugBomb »

Going forward, once we implement this, I will not enter any info unless I am asked to, so whatever people put on their registration is what will be shown.

Eric, I put you down as STS in the demo just for the hell of it. I'm sure you are closer to STS than you are to DP or CSP.
Mike M
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Re: PAX Results

Post by scheherazade »

Well, I'm "stock prepared" or whatever it's called.

So long as I can see the raw time, I don't really care what my PAX/whatever time is.

All I care about is the actual time anyways.
That's what I can compare to see how I'm really doing / improving.

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Re: PAX Results

Post by Nathan Atkins »

Meh, I see thereis a market for this so to speak, but I'm quite happy with the straightforward system cdc uses especially since my index multiplier is 1 haha, I know my index time instantly!
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Re: PAX Results

Post by JoeTR6 »

We'll only add people into the PAX results if they enter the class at registration.

The problem I see for us ever using PAX for points is that many of the mods people make for the street throw them into the deep end of the competition pool. That, and cars are occasionally classed completely wrong. When I had an M Coupe, it was in the same class as a Z06 Corvette. Same weight and half the horsepower. What dope were they smoking? The SCCA also favors newer cars. I never understood why the new MINI was in H stock with older cars too slow to compete anywhere else.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by 03threefiftyz »

Pax is fun and all, but its tough sledding for any car SP and above on the small lots. Cobra's have a better shot at taking cdc index than pax IMO.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by 03threefiftyz »

Oh....

Image

...never thought I would see the day.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by AJ_RDR_Civic »

03threefiftyz wrote:Pax is fun and all, but its tough sledding for any car SP and above on the small lots. Cobra's have a better shot at taking cdc index than pax IMO.
The results for PAX will probably end up being very similar to the CDC Index simply because the smaller lots favor the small cars(and STU cars) on street tires...
03threefiftyz wrote:Oh....

Image

...never thought I would see the day.
First the ideas of classes (small bore, BRZ/FRS, and talks of others) and now PAX is somehow being brought up? Blasphemy.
Image
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Re: PAX Results

Post by scheherazade »

Tyres, horsepower, and weight.
That about quantifies the biggest impacts on times.
IMO its pretty much to-the-point.

Even if using PAX, the original index time should be retained.

In PAX a simple rear splitter changes your class.
And we all know that it's basically a joke bolt-on at our speeds.

-scheherazade
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Re: PAX Results

Post by echan »

scheherazade wrote:
Even if using PAX, the original index time should be retained.

In PAX a simple rear splitter changes your class.
And we all know that it's basically a joke bolt-on at our speeds.

-scheherazade
We plan to retain the CDC index. The PAX idea is only for FYI if participants wish to enter it (no prizes, no points, only as something for people to reference).
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Re: PAX Results

Post by v10climber »

03threefiftyz wrote:Image
That's funny stuff right there :lol:
scheherazade wrote:In PAX a simple rear splitter changes your class.
And we all know that it's basically a joke bolt-on at our speeds.
Tell that to the SRSBZNS autocrossers in the SCCA. Aero is becoming a fact of life at the pointy end of auto-x

In all seriousness though CDC is continually attempting to find new ways to attract drivers to the sport and to CDC. One way is to try and pull in some of the SCCA guys who may run with CDC when the SCCA is having an off weekend.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by 03threefiftyz »

scheherazade wrote:Tyres, horsepower, and weight.
That about quantifies the biggest impacts on times.
IMO its pretty much to-the-point.

Even if using PAX, the original index time should be retained.

In PAX a simple rear splitter changes your class.
And we all know that it's basically a joke bolt-on at our speeds.

-scheherazade
It helps....trust me.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by Nathan Atkins »

v10climber wrote: In all seriousness though CDC is continually attempting to find new ways to attract drivers to the sport and to CDC. One way is to try and pull in some of the SCCA guys who may run with CDC when the SCCA is having an off weekend.
Heh, right so we can gawk at how "serious" they are. Kind of puts me in mind of the crazed little league father who says things like "hey that kid's birthday is prior to September 30th! He should be in the 8-10 age group! This is outrageous!" As all the other parents look on with a raised eyebrow and think "are you for real? Get a grip and just try to have fun man!"

If they want to run with CDC of course we'll all welcome them, but knowing how badly they stomped all over the casual autocrossers that most of us are is something they can figure out for themselves.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by 03threefiftyz »

I don't really get the SCCA people are too serious thing...

The only days I find some people to get overly "serious" is on their run days at the national championships, and even then the bulk are still laid back. In fact, normal national events are more "fun" than most other (local or otherwise) events I do. The sad fact is that most of us that do a fair number of the big events use up a fair amount of our vacation in doing them. So....we tend to have a lot of fun.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by ericw »

This is probably all irrelevant as Mike was just looking to give the SCCA people an option at comparing among themselves and Ed was just trying to give the FRS/BRZ people a chance to compare among themselves. But to me, between the FRS/BRZ people saying their cars can't be competitive at CDC, and now incorporating PAX for comparisons, it just seems like people aren't satisfied with the accuracy of the current index. Maybe that's just a false interpretation on my part. But if that's the case, fixing it seems like a better option than adding more categories to compare. I mean, say I drive an FRS, well the index says I suck, the BRZ/FRS class says I'm awesome, and PAX says I'm middle-class... that's really useful.


Has anyone ever thought of making the CDC index a continuous function? That is, when registering, the person puts in estimated weight and hp of their car instead of choosing a range that encompasses it and a linear (exponential? logarithmic?!?!) function determines their index. I mean we all have to have an idea of what it is anyway to determine what range we're in. That way a 100 hp 2090 lb car wouldn't have the same index as an 80 hp 2400 lb car. This would remove some of the "prepping to the limit" competition/economy boosting but isn't the whole idea of the index to compare driving and not vehicles anyway?

Honestly, i'm fairly intoxicated, but I thought about the continuous function thing the other day so I still think that's valid. Of course, if the index stays the same I am perfectly fine with that. 8-)
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Re: PAX Results

Post by AJ_RDR_Civic »

03threefiftyz wrote:I don't really get the SCCA people are too serious thing...

The only days I find some people to get overly "serious" is on their run days at the national championships, and even then the bulk are still laid back. In fact, normal national events are more "fun" than most other (local or otherwise) events I do. The sad fact is that most of us that do a fair number of the big events use up a fair amount of our vacation in doing them. So....we tend to have a lot of fun.
This... I've ran with just about every club in this area over the past 8 years and the majority of the people who, at the very least, run locally with SCCA are just as "serious" as anyone running at CDC, BMW, PCA(both), MCSW, etc. I really don't understand where people are getting the idea of SCCA guys being more "serious face" when autoxing than any other club. They are all out to do the same thing, have fun and get the best times they can. Sure there are cars that are very well prepped and guys that travel the country to autox, but that's only a small fraction of the HUNDREDS of others who continue to run at those events that don't have well prepped cars and certainly don't travel. I see tons of familiar faces at ALL of these clubs.

If the idea of mixing PAX into the results is to try and bring in more people who generally just run SCCA events to CDC events, it's just not going to work. The main reason why a lot of those guys don't do CDC events is because of the lot sizes and conditions. If the lots were a little bigger and in better condition, trust me, you'd be seeing a lot more people from SCCA events. It happens at BMW events, you'll see many run at just the Waldorf events for fun or testing but never ever show up at Bowie. Unfortunately lot size and condition is out of anyone's hands..
ericw wrote:This is probably all irrelevant as Mike was just looking to give the SCCA people an option at comparing among themselves and Ed was just trying to give the FRS/BRZ people a chance to compare among themselves. But to me, between the FRS/BRZ people saying their cars can't be competitive at CDC, and now incorporating PAX for comparisons, it just seems like people aren't satisfied with the accuracy of the current index. Maybe that's just a false interpretation on my part. But if that's the case, fixing it seems like a better option than adding more categories to compare. I mean, say I drive an FRS, well the index says I suck, the BRZ/FRS class says I'm awesome, and PAX says I'm middle-class... that's really useful.


Has anyone ever thought of making the CDC index a continuous function? That is, when registering, the person puts in estimated weight and hp of their car instead of choosing a range that encompasses it and a linear (exponential? logarithmic?!?!) function determines their index. I mean we all have to have an idea of what it is anyway to determine what range we're in. That way a 100 hp 2090 lb car wouldn't have the same index as an 80 hp 2400 lb car. This would remove some of the "prepping to the limit" competition/economy boosting but isn't the whole idea of the index to compare driving and not vehicles anyway?

Honestly, i'm fairly intoxicated, but I thought about the continuous function thing the other day so I still think that's valid. Of course, if the index stays the same I am perfectly fine with that. 8-)
The easiest thing to do would probably be to somehow modify the PAX system to work for CDC. But it seems many don't like that. Although I feel like I'm seeing CDC going down that path with changes in general Index over time to try and make people happy, the addition of a Small Bore class a while back and now possibly the addition of a car specific class(BRZ/FRS that will have it's own set of rules). So that makes me wonder, what's next..?
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Re: PAX Results

Post by Areddi »

ericw wrote:But to me, between the FRS/BRZ people saying their cars can't be competitive at CDC
Not remotely the case for our request, just a fun class to play in to compare against each other due to our numbers. Same idea as small bore.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by DriftSS »

PAX is based on National-level SCCA cars at national level courses (i.e., a lot bigger than the stuff CDC runs at). While that's okay for SCCA Fed-Ex events, the indexes will naturally skew towards low HP and nimble cars (i.e., Miatas, civics, etc) having an advantage at small lots like any CDC runs. Did my fair share of bitching at the fairness of the PAX in late 90s when the SCCA was pre-Fed-Ex (i.e., Frederick, Rosecroft, etc). For this reason, CDC's index is at least based on statistics at its tracks over the years so in many respects is an equal or better system.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by DriftSS »

Another problem with PAX (except for fun comparison) is that you are forced into rigid (and often unfair) classifications and building a car (or buying a car) to the max of the rules to be competitive (or foregoing fun changes because of the bump in class it will entail). For instance, I had a competitive FS Camaro that was also a track car, but I couldn't do simple CAI or bolt-in cage or steering wheel change or short throw shifter or wider tires or remove weight so I decided on a competitive autox car and a slow less-safe track day car. Bought my less competitive Camaro SS for looks (which was categorized as ESP stock because of non-factory SLP options), forcing me to run 315s w/ 11' rims to be more competitive, but at least then allowing me to do my wanted track day mods...but still couldn't do simple cam change without bumping way up to CP...and couldn't run a street tire class either because of wacky max tire width rules.
So the PAX is not necessarily a better indicator of how you are relative to the competition, but more so how your car matches up to the classification relative to others. I think the CDC index is fine the way it is (although I agree that recent tire improvements lessen the difference between street and r-comps).
The best index I ever used was to find a couple cars of similar kind and drivers of similar skill level and compare myself during each event.
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Re: PAX Results

Post by ericw »

Areddi wrote:
ericw wrote:But to me, between the FRS/BRZ people saying their cars can't be competitive at CDC
Not remotely the case for our request, just a fun class to play in to compare against each other due to our numbers. Same idea as small bore.
Areddi wrote:The usual candidates take the top time every week at CDC, and even with indexing, still stomp everyone else. This is not a problem, but it would be cool to have a place to play and compare ourselves without having to worry about Cobras, fully prepped Miatas, and STI's, which are going to stomp us anyway. Similar to small bore, where those guys can compete against each other and still look at the top people, but not feel like they have nothing to compete for.
I'm not saying anything about your class. With these recent two threads it just seems to imply there's a market for things other than the current index, for whatever reason. And I'm just drawing conclusions from the above statement and basic facts and suggesting that a continuous function might improve things. I'm saying if the FRS, or any other car, was at the advantageous edges of the index window it would be more competitive in the index than it currently is. If the index was a continuous function(s) a stock FRS wouldn't have the same index as a car with 200 whp weighing 2,501 lbs, which may or may not be viewed as a better thing, but perhaps then you wouldn't feel like you have nothing to compete for in the regular index.

Sorry for going way off-topic from the OP.
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