Proposed Changes in 2014 CDC Autocross Series

[Areddi]

You have all brought up some very good points. We want to find solutions that appeal to the majority of our participants. We also want to make sure that what we do is simple and straightforward for new folks to pick up.

I have come up with an idea this morning that I want to share. For this moment, I want everyone to remember that none of what you are about to see has been vetted by the other organizers, so please treat it as a completely hypothetical solution at this moment.

My idea keeps the raw and index results as the core. Then from that core, we create many classes for people to choose from, but they ONLY serve as another tool to break down the results into more interesting, bite-size pieces. In other words, we would still have the index championship encompassing all competitors and awarding points thru the year and free passes at the end of the year (no more smallbore, unless we make it an optional class). The optional classes would be mostly for fun and bragging rights (no points accrued), but we could possibly offer trophies for the most top finishes in classes that gather a certain amount of participation. Classes would have very simple requirements and be self-policed by participants, but the system would only let you choose ONE class per event (things will get way too complicated if we have people swapping cars/classes throughout the day). For example, a Miata class would allow any Miata to participate, An AWD class would allow any AWD car, Rotary class for Rotary-powered cars, FRS/BRZ class, Muscle class for V8s, etc. We would let people petition to add classes before the season starts, but in order to keep from creating 100 different classes, we need a significant number of people to commit to a new class for it to be created. Also, we don't want to make changes to the classes during the season. Here is an example of what this would look like in the results:

Results with Optional Classes
(To show a specific class, click the button under the "Opt Class" Header, choose a class, and then re-sort by Best Time or Index Time if you wish)

Again, this is just an unofficial idea I had this morning, but it seems like a decent compromise to let folks mold new classes without making things too complicated for the organizers or the participants.

This is a fantastic idea, and I think would make everyone happy. Everyone plays in the general pool, but one can select an optional class if one wants to. I like how this looks on the Excel, and just makes it easy to sort. No penalties for those who don't want to do it, and a fun way for the sub-groups to self-police and compete. Would be cool that if there were 4 or 5, depending on interest, fun classes, if the club could recognize a winner with a trophy/free admissions/whatever is currently done now. I really like it, and it seems that the check-box for fun classes could be incorporated into the signup without much trouble.

Question to tail off of this, could the classes choose to impart their own rules within the class? Since it is for fun, then the only implication here is to have the rules for a class listed next to the check-box during signup. No policing needed by the club, it would be done by the participants of that class. Obviously this would allow members of that class to have rules for competing if they want to. Example: FRS/BRZ Class can run only street tires, no-forced induction, any suspension goes. Another example: Miata Class can only run tire width up to 205. What do people think about this? I can see the warning for a slippery slope, but if the people within want to add another filter I think it could be cool.

Believe me, I would love to offer a season pass/subscription. This option would probably make it a little easier at registration and give some money upfront. However to be fair to those getting the pass, the participant has a right to know exactly how many events they are getting, and the only way to know this is if we had a firm schedule and total control of the various lots (right now, we are going back and forth with the various lots to get a mutual schedule that works for everyone, which is a very iterative process. Believe me, even when we think everything is done, we almost always have to change dates - and this is long before our schedule is even posted on the web site).

I think if the disclaimer is that you basically get entry into all events if desired, and it is on you if you miss some, most people will understand that. Last year there were 19 events total, 4 that were test & tunes. I would say that the test & tunes should probably be outside of the season package since they're specialized on participation. Lets take the 15 "championship" events. club membership for the year is $30, and then each event is $30 to attend, so basically $480 to come to everything. I think if you offered an upfront price of say $400 which included club fee and entry to all events, people would gladly pay it. Most people are going to miss 3-4 events (or more) anyway, but it gives it a nice up front amount and would bring in some convenience. You can pick the number, but I bet a lot of people would be for it.

[Nathan Atkins]

-.19*LN('UTQG')+1.99

EX:
UTQG Index
50 1.246715629
100 1.115017665
140 1.05108794
180 1.003338198
200 0.9833197
320 0.894019011
400 0.851621736
500 0.809224461
640 0.762321046
720 0.73994227

[echan]

I think if the disclaimer is that you basically get entry into all events if desired, and it is on you if you miss some, most people will understand that. Last year there were 19 events total, 4 that were test & tunes. Lets take the 15 "championship" events. club membership for the year is $30, and then each event is $30 to attend, so basically $480 to come to everything. I think if you offered an upfront price of say $400 which included club fee and entry to all events, people would gladly pay it. Most people are going to miss 3-4 events (or more) anyway, but it gives it a nice up front amount and would bring in some convenience. You can pick the number, but I bet a lot of people would be for it.

As I mentioned before, I cannot ensure all the dates until past mid-season. Then when events do get cancelled, we are left with participants telling me "But I was planning on using the pass at that event, can I use it for one event the next season?" The only reason why I know this is because I already hear it every year from someone that won a free pass, where they ask to extend it past the stated season. I really try not to be a jerk, but what ends up happening is that a bunch of passes start floating around with people stating "Ed said I can use it even though the pass is expired." Things get more complicated during the summer months when we often offer $10 discounts for second slots. So to make it simple, participants just pay for when they arrive.

Yes, we do try to hold around 19 events with about 15 Championship Events. However, the operating word here is try. As many remember, we use to say, that we drop 6 events. The problem was that we didn't hold as many events 3 years ago (again due to cancellations, and a snow storm at the last event) and dropping 6 events were too much. In the end, we had to compile results of dropping 5 events AND dropping 6 events, resulting a mixture of winners. Now the rules are that we "take the top 9 events" because of the uncertainty of the event number. Since we aren't certain, we really can't be certain of the fair price for the season pass. Yes, we can say "this is the pass, and if things don't work as planned, too bad." The problem is that just doesn't seem like good customer service.

I don't want to be a "naysayer", but wanted to let you know the reasoning why we don't do it.

[03threefiftyz]

As I posted before on facetube....

.01 multi for A6's vs a 180tw street tire is a problem. Anyone with a real deal CSP miata is going to just crush index. Been a while, but I think the Z would be tough, outside of Frederick, on index. Also, when the F did 251-350 get lumped into the same power bracket? That's a big diff in useable power. Is weight with driver or without? With the proposed 1.02 R-comp multi, my index is 1.051 for the BSP car. I can't remember if that is comparatively high or not.

[ericw]

First revision was two mutually-exclusive series with 8 total winners. Current revision is one series/4 total winners with a filter on the spreadsheet.

Classic negotiations guys...

[BugBomb]

We never said we were going to reduce the awards. In fact, I figured if we were dropping to just index series, I would push for rewarding more than just the top 4 places with free passes. Plus, we would be giving out trophies (and possibly free passes) for some of the optional class winners.

[BugBomb]

.01 multi for A6's vs a 180tw street tire is a problem. Anyone with a real deal CSP miata is going to just crush index. Been a while, but I think the Z would be tough, outside of Frederick, on index. Also, when the F did 251-350 get lumped into the same power bracket? That's a big diff in useable power. Is weight with driver or without? With the proposed 1.02 R-comp multi, my index is 1.051 for the BSP car. I can't remember if that is comparatively high or not.

Thanks for the input. I agree that A6 versus 180TW should be adjusted. The power brackets were consolidated because the extra power is practically useless on the smaller lots we typically run. Also, the index is tailored towards the cars and drivers we see most often at CDC. Waldorf will likely shake things up for us if we get more National-level drivers and cars coming out. Those folks aren't likely to attend our other events, and 5 events won't be enough for them to have a huge impact on the index series, so we may just see how it goes.

Nothing is finalized yet, so if anyone hasn't voiced their opinion, please do so.

[03threefiftyz]

Waldorf is still pretty small. ST cars tend to do OK (particularly STU) there.

[echan]

Waldorf is still pretty small. ST cars tend to do OK (particularly STU) there.

Keep in mind that course design is a HUGE factor. Wide open courses favor some cars, while tight courses favor other cars. However with small lots, we tend to have only tight courses. At Winchester, there is more option because the lot if large.

[JayPar]

You have all brought up some very good points. We want to find solutions that appeal to the majority of our participants. We also want to make sure that what we do is simple and straightforward for new folks to pick up.

I have come up with an idea this morning that I want to share. For this moment, I want everyone to remember that none of what you are about to see has been vetted by the other organizers, so please treat it as a completely hypothetical solution at this moment.

My idea keeps the raw and index results as the core. Then from that core, we create many classes for people to choose from, but they ONLY serve as another tool to break down the results into more interesting, bite-size pieces. In other words, we would still have the index championship encompassing all competitors and awarding points thru the year and free passes at the end of the year (no more smallbore, unless we make it an optional class). The optional classes would be mostly for fun and bragging rights (no points accrued), but we could possibly offer trophies for the most top finishes in classes that gather a certain amount of participation. Classes would have very simple requirements and be self-policed by participants, but the system would only let you choose ONE class per event (things will get way too complicated if we have people swapping cars/classes throughout the day). For example, a Miata class would allow any Miata to participate, An AWD class would allow any AWD car, Rotary class for Rotary-powered cars, FRS/BRZ class, Muscle class for V8s, etc. We would let people petition to add classes before the season starts, but in order to keep from creating 100 different classes, we need a significant number of people to commit to a new class for it to be created. Also, we don't want to make changes to the classes during the season. Here is an example of what this would look like in the results:

Results with Optional Classes
(To show a specific class, click the button under the "Opt Class" Header, choose a class, and then re-sort by Best Time or Index Time if you wish)

Again, this is just an unofficial idea I had this morning, but it seems like a decent compromise to let folks mold new classes without making things too complicated for the organizers or the participants.

I think Denise and I like this more than splitting up into two groups.

A filter would be nice, but it only covers one event. For the year-long subgroup competitions we would need a summary page (similar to the one for Small Bore in 2013) so we could see how many events people have driven in that particular group (I assume there would be a minimum number of events to qualify) and to show how the scores are adding up. That sounds like it could be a lot of work for you organizers? Or were you thinking a representative from each subgroup would tally their own scores?

This is similar to a concept that I was thinking of suggesting before you posted, which I was going to call "recognition classes" where people wouldn't have to specify which class they are competing in for each event, but we could break up the results into meaningful subgroups by using their per-event registration info to see what car they were driving during each event. An advantage of this (or disadvantage, depending on how you look at it) would be that the same person could be in more than one overlapping subgroup, but that would depend on what criteria you wanted to use. Like FRS/BRZ *and* Small Bore (although it sounds like a person winning multiple awards is what we're trying to get away from, it doesn't seem logical to me to preclude that if the selection criteria overlap). A disadvantage of this might be that any classes would have to be determinable from the registration info, which doesn't seem as customizable to support more abstract groups like "Rotary", "AWD", etc - unless we expanded the form to include that info. Anyway it was just a thought.

[echan]

We never said we were going to reduce the awards. In fact, I figured if we were dropping to just index series, I would push for rewarding more than just the top 4 places with free passes. Plus, we would be giving out trophies (and possibly free passes) for some of the optional class winners.

Mike is correct that we are not interested in reducing the awards. If we go with Mike's proposed system, we try to figure out ways to reward participants (maybe at each event with passes or discount passes, fun awards, etc). The great thing about our software (that Joe S made) is that we can sort the various results in Real-Time and award the participants on site (as the last drivers finishes their run).

Keep in mind that the organizers are trying to have an open discussion to all our participants (and try to anticipate what potential participants) on what they may want. We do not want to just ram new rules down without any discussion. The intent is to improve the event experience. The Organizers realize that we don't know everything and how others feel, and that's way we have this thread.

I always hate it, when at my job, Management says "tell us your ideas" or wants us to use the Suggestion Box. Then when you actually give a productive suggestion, they don't respond even with a reply! But they continue with soliciting ideas. The only ideas they incorporate are ideas that don't amount to anything - what they tell us the "Low Hanging Fruit." It's like Management read a stupid management book that says to get suggestions from their staff and implement them, resulting in improvements. However, Management doesn't really care about improvement, but their bosses want them to follow the "book." So they implement a bunch of BS. Many of you probably know what I'm talking about.

I always thought that if my job actually listen to what their people said, addressed the suggestions, and implemented the suggestions (not in order level of ease, but based on best opportunity), the organization would improve beyond anyone's imagination.

I want to know that we are not giving you the same BS. We are the "Real Deal."

I want to see CDC improve beyond what any of us could imagine and in some ways, we already have.

When you look back 10 years ago when CDC started, we ran with only 20 people and two events (the last one being shutdown by the police). We had a timing system with wire sensors connected to a serial port and used a cheap karaoke machine as a PA. After the police incident, I was wondering what to do with all these cones and why was I so stupid to buy all these equipment. I was about to give up.

What saved CDC was from those few people, I got suggestions and support to salvage the club. Joe M was able to get Harry Grove as a lot for us. Arthur S built a website. Charles T and Kyle B built registration software. Maximo contacted the various forums to bring in more participants. The list goes on and on. Almost every single improvement wasn't my idea, but improvements that came from suggestions.

Now we run about 19 events, have 5 different locations, and have fields that often have 100 participants. I have no doubt that if I (we) didn't listen to others, we would no longer exist -Equally, if we stop listening now.

Sorry to go off on a massive tangent on CDC management philosophy (or management according to Ed). I just want everyone to know that although this club is also about fun, we take the management of the club fanatically seriously.

Ed

[Areddi]

So here is my idea for a few classes that, based on what I have seen for participants across a couple seasons, might be a good starting point:

"Name to be determined RWD": Coupes, Hatchbacks, and Sedans 2.5L or under, RWD, no forced induction (unless factory equipped). This would allow Twins, Rx8s, some BMWs, and the like

"Name to be determined FWD": Coupes, Hatchbacks, and Sedans 2.5L or under, FWD, no forced induction (unless factory equipped). This would allow Minis, GTIs, Civics, Mazda 3's, and the like

"Name to be determined AWD": Coupes, Hatchbacks, and Sedans, AWD. This would allow Subarus, Evos, some Audis, and the like

"Name to be determined Muscle": Coupes, Hatchbacks, and Sedans, with factory HP over 250. This would cover Zs, Mustangs, Camaros, Mopar, Vettes, and the like

"Name to be determined Roadster": Roadsters 2.5L or under, no forced induction (unless factory equipped). This would cover Miatas, S2000s, some BMW's, and the like

I think the cool there here is that if this is left general enough, there could be some cross-overs in category, i.e. S2000 or Miata runs in RWD, Focus ST runs in Muscle, and so on. What do people this about this as an idea? This would have no other restrictions, and would still make use of the index system to arrive at a time. If the times go by RAW only, then we would need to consider additional parameters.

[vettegirl]

As much as I hate to lose small-bore, I'd rather do that than have a rift in the competition by splitting by just index and small-bore. Part of the fun of the whole thing for us is seeing how we compare to other drivers and striving to reduce separation to the leaders. If people want to see how they do against a class, that's cool, but I don't want to see this club turn into SCCA where it becomes very class exclusive. We have that in SCCA - I'd love to see this club continue as it has - a group of people running their cars, not classes of cars running separately. I like that we can do the mods we want (or none at all) that we can hop in different cars and compete, etc. It's part of the fun of it for us!

[DriftSS]

Everyone can complain about 1 or more index factors so there will likely never be agreement. There will always be car/tire combos better than others (even in the complex SCCA system). Case in point, my Z06 Vette with 500HP and rather crappy (by performance not cost) 80 wear rated Michelin PSCs indexes at around 1.0566 I think but I can kick its butt all day long straight up in Parson's <100HP Miata with street tires that indexes at <1.00 (as evidenced by my only FTD being in my 1st try in the Miata). The index will always be a little unfair to some...but still useful for gauging improvement or comparison.
Voice your concerns but don't stress out over the index changes. Its a great club...come out and run regardless of the rules...

[JayPar]

So here is my idea for a few classes that, based on what I have seen for participants across a couple seasons, might be a good starting point:

"Name to be determined RWD": Coupes, Hatchbacks, and Sedans 2.5L or under, RWD, no forced induction (unless factory equipped). This would allow Twins, Rx8s, some BMWs, and the like

"Name to be determined FWD": Coupes, Hatchbacks, and Sedans 2.5L or under, FWD, no forced induction (unless factory equipped). This would allow Minis, GTIs, Civics, Mazda 3's, and the like

"Name to be determined AWD": Coupes, Hatchbacks, and Sedans, AWD. This would allow Subarus, Evos, some Audis, and the like

"Name to be determined Muscle": Coupes, Hatchbacks, and Sedans, with factory HP over 250. This would cover Zs, Mustangs, Camaros, Mopar, Vettes, and the like

"Name to be determined Roadster": Roadsters 2.5L or under, no forced induction (unless factory equipped). This would cover Miatas, S2000s, some BMW's, and the like

I think the cool there here is that if this is left general enough, there could be some cross-overs in category, i.e. S2000 or Miata runs in RWD, Focus ST runs in Muscle, and so on. What do people this about this as an idea? This would have no other restrictions, and would still make use of the index system to arrive at a time. If the times go by RAW only, then we would need to consider additional parameters.

These sound good (especially the Muscle and Roadster classes, both of which would be pretty competitive I think). Where would the forced induction (modded) cars go, and the Cobras? (Maybe Cobras don't get to play in these classes since they will own the raw times). Would Lotuses go in the Roadster class?

[vettegirl]

Love the idea of overall and then added prizes for sub-classes or awarding further down the list in overall. This is evolving nicely I think.

[03threefiftyz]

Doesn't bother me if the cobras are in the same class as me...

...that said, this whole 6,8, 10 whatever something classes smacks of the every kid gets a trophy syndrome. Give awards to the top 3 overall and top 3 index. Eliminate small bore, etc. Keep it simple.

[Areddi]

I think you'll always have those one off cars that just don't fit. Give them a shot in what makes the most sense, or some cars may just be too good and can't play in the fun classes. You could look where it indexes and see what it is closest to and throw it in the gaggle who matches up.

Things like cobras and aftermarket forced induction cars may not be able to fall into a class.

[Nathan Atkins]

I totally agree with mike lane here for the club prizes and such, but I also think it would be cool to have the drop down filters that other mike proposed. Keep the prize system in place that we currently have and make the numbers easier to compare in bite sized bits for people that are interested via the filters.

[03threefiftyz]

I think I remember Mike saying it was OK, but just to make sure. It is OK for us to bring cars that do not have tags, but have insurance, correct?

[yardy8301]

Ed, I am right there with you with your management rant. I love the fact that we are having this discussion where organizers and members throw ideas at the board at the same time.

I don't really have a dog in this fight as I mostly just look at the raw times and look how I am doing relative to the top and other regulars that are usually around the same time as me. Couple things to note since I am already typing, I do like Mikes idea, in fact its the same idea I believe he proposed a year ago, only this time we avoided the words scca index. We will probably end up with groups similar to st classes. This is great since there is a simple method of establishing the rules of those classes.

As far as seasonal passes, i believe Chads suggestion of a 9 event package eliminates all the concerns voiced in this thread and we could all put in early for that birthday gift.

[echan]

I think I remember Mike saying it was OK, but just to make sure. It is OK for us to bring cars that do not have tags, but have insurance, correct?

This is stretching the rules a bit, but we've had cars that didn't have current tag due them not able to pass emissions. The vehicles were, however, registered and insured. Basically you need to ask yourself if your car hits another vehicle or person, do you have insurance that will cover you? If the answer is no, do not bring the car to the autocross.

[Areddi]

+Agree on the 9 event pack, then people can just buy per event after that. Would be cool if the 9 event pack could include the club dues as well to take care of it all at once.

[qtrracer]

Also agree on the nine-event pack. This solution seems to account for the possibility of cancelations/no shows for any reason, yet provide a discount for nine events plus the benefit of early cash-flow.

Just as a point of reference, I did drag racing back in the day (circ. 1970). Was very good at it; very competitive. Belonged to a club. Got an article in Car Craft. Turns out that at some point the competition narrows way down to say two - six. And most of those guys tend to be in the car game for a day-job. Besides the time commitment to stay on top and the cost of the next super-zoot part, it got way too serious for "fun" - more like a job. I stopped and haven't looked back. It took me nearly 30 years to get back into auto sports because of my drag racing experience.

Julie and I joined CDC because of the group camaraderie, and what appeared to be the focus on having fun and improving self. No classing rules made it very attractive as well as the emphasis on the honor system to determine indexes. There is no way our driving skill or our cars are going to get FTDs unless we're the only ones running and even then one of us would have to "beat" the other. We both have a great time no matter where we place in the standings.

My fear is a change that emphasizes competition, over the club's roots. Any way the club goes on these proposed rules, don't compromise what the club really means - at least to some of us. There are plenty of local and national events for those that need the competition. Moreover, in my experience that is where the real competition is anyway. CDC has competition but it's not what the club is about, is it?

As for the suggestion of a "muscle" car being 250+ Factory HP, my 86 Mustang and any Fox excepting the 93 Cobra never got close to 250 factory; 220 for 87+; 210 for the 86 down. I know these are mere suggestions but a little more research might be in order before selecting factory HP figures.

[echan]

Also agree on the nine-event pack. This solution seems to account for the possibility of cancelations/no shows for any reason, yet provide a discount for nine events plus the benefit of early cash-flow.

Actually, the more I go over it the more we probably can't do the mulit-pack event for the following reasons:

1. Last year the reservation system was closed with a full field 5 times before the event. I really don't like having to turn people away, but if they had a mulit-pack, I can see how these participants may end up getting special treatment. As it is, I've squeezed people in the field in the past, if they had a reasonable reason why they could not make the reservation on time (family issues, problems with the reservation system, etc). Taking this to an extreme the event field would get so over filled that the events would run too late and/or we would not be able to provide 6 runs for everyone. At the very least an unintended consequence would be that I would no longer be able as flexible when the field is full. As a result, I may have to turn away participants that were "pre-paid." The whole concept of our current system is that you pay at the event. If the participant can't attend or if the event gets cancelled, none of us have to deal with refunds.

2. We current have a pricing system that is on a razor thin margin. We offer $10 discounts for the second slot during the slow part of the season (Summer). The discount helps keep attendance up with a larger field but much less total dollars than if we could fill the field with the normal pricing. In the end, we basically just survive during the Summer months. So if we offered a multi pass event, we would probably have a hard time to offer an additional discount (unless we raised the normal prices, which no one wants). So we probably won't offer a discount (keep in mind that CDC is one of the lowest priced structured club when it comes to membership and entry fee, right now we are wrestling with increases in lot rental costs, insurance, and buying replacement cones.

My fear is a change that emphasizes competition, over the club's roots. Any way the club goes on these proposed rules, don't compromise what the club really means - at least to some of us. There are plenty of local and national events for those that need the competition. Moreover, in my experience that is where the real competition is anyway. CDC has competition but it's not what the club is about, is it?

Our intent is not to change the emphasis of the club. We just realized that for the second year, many of the people are winning multiply awards over two series, which seems to indicate that the indexes are off. In addition, we are trying to balance the indexes with the new lot at Waldorf (a best guess thing). Our hope is to make the events more fun with a large number of people getting some type of prize. I don't want to the club to turn into a kids soccer league where everyone wins or we don't keep score (this would go too far in the other direction).