Ideas for the 2015 Season

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echan
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Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by echan »

Please post your ideas for improvements for the 2015 season.

We already had one for an index for suspension below:

by marauder » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:02 pm
what about an indexing system for suspension.
Something like:
Mod Index Adjustment
Stock 1.00
Springs 1.01
Coilover/Springs&Shocks 1.02
Coilover/Springs&Shocks w/ nag Camber 1.03

This thread is to have an open forum for suggestions, ideas, on how to improve/change for the 2015 season. You can provide any comment like you hate the food that CDC makes or you want chicken, you want to change the tire index, you don't like the 3 run in the morning/3 in the afternoon format, you want a smaller field, you want more TNT, etc.

I can't promise that we will implement all suggestions (especially since many will probably be in conflict with other suggestions), but I will promise that the organizer will consider all comments and try to give reasons on why we decide what we decide.

Ed
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by Jim Harris »

CDC has a "morning only" scheme, which is good for folks who have obligations and can't stay all day. How about an "afternoon only" scheme that allows these same people to do their various tasks early, then come to CDC? This way they get the benefits of a warmer track that has had lots of the dust/dirt swept off of it, like the other entrants. You'd need to allocate a time period (like 1200-1230) for registration and tech, but it would probably be pretty light duty. You would need 15 minutes for a course walk. OK, this is a bit of trouble, I know, but it's always annoying to look at the results of the PM runs when you did morning only.

The index needs a fresh look. I'll think about this. I know you don't want to use the SCCA PAX index, which I'd prefer, but maybe there is some middle ground. I just remember so many times looking at the results and thinking some of the index times were pretty outrageous, not because anybody was dishonest, but because their cars happened to be placed favorably at the end of some of your brackets, and others were placed unfavorably (like the S2000s are at the bottom of one particular horsepower bracket.) Come to think of it, maybe it IS time to think about using the SCCA index.

When you publish results, devote a column to the numerical index, and not just the code. The code doesn't intuitively translate into anything, after all. (Yes, we can figure it out with simple division, but it would be nice to just have it displayed.)

That's about all I'd change. The rest is great.

Jim
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by JayPar »

I kind of like the idea of afternoon only... Maybe sacrificing the course walk is the price to pay for that convenience? You could still show up a few minutes early and at least watch a few cars run. That still leaves tech though.

PAX index has a problem in that it treats all cars in a class as if they were prepped to the max for the class. All of the non-street tire classes would have to show up to CDC events wearing r-comps to be competitive, which would make it very expensive to drive.

One idea I had... There seems to be a correlation between parking lot size and how well the index applies. For example, on the Frederick lot, horsepower means very little...it's all about being maneuverable and carrying speed in the sweepers (tires / suspension). Waldorf rewards horsepower more. So I'm wondering if there could be lot-specific index multipliers as well (which could be multiplied with the existing indexes). You could probably do some statistical analysis using this year's results to level out the playing field a bit (group the events by parking lot, then group the cars into horsepower ratings, then fiddle with multipliers for each parking lot to make the group averages come out even).
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by echan »

Jim Harris wrote:CDC has a "morning only" scheme, which is good for folks who have obligations and can't stay all day. How about an "afternoon only" scheme that allows these same people to do their various tasks early, then come to CDC? This way they get the benefits of a warmer track that has had lots of the dust/dirt swept off of it, like the other entrants. You'd need to allocate a time period (like 1200-1230) for registration and tech, but it would probably be pretty light duty. You would need 15 minutes for a course walk. OK, this is a bit of trouble, I know, but it's always annoying to look at the results of the PM runs when you did morning only.
I like the option of having an "afternoon only" like we currently have a "morning only" option. The issue is that a driver's meeting and course walk will take a minimum of 45 minutes, not to mention the additional labor for the organizers to process the afternoon only participants. The result would be that we would either reduce the field (which would result in a higher entry fee to make up the difference) and/or fewer runs. In addition the required additional manpower, would cause us to not have the grills (which the food pays for the free drinks, so no more free drinks).

We've tried to figure out how to do the "afternoon only" option while keeping everything else the same, but we can't figure out how to do it. We've even thought about doing a pre-tech that would be good for a longer time period (e.g. one month) or have a self-tech inspection. The issue with this idea is that if something did happen, we could see how CDC could be considered negligent for not conducting an inspection of the car. Then no matter what, we HAVE to HAVE a Driver's meeting and Course Walk. In the end, it would take us a MIMIMUM of 45 minutes (even longer if you consider how this may increase the heat change-over).

In short, the afternoon only participants would cause the others to stay 45 minutes longer, have fewer runs, or pay a larger entry fee. In the end if we want to still over 6 runs for each participant, we can only have a much smaller field. I think a comparable amount would be how we run the Frederick Events on Saturday and the TNT events on Sunday. The Saturday autocross has about 70 participants with 6 runs and no break. The Sunday TNT has about 40 participants with 10 runs and a break, which is comparable to the length of time for an additional driver's meeting the course walk. The TNT is much smaller and the entry fee is more expensive (the Saturday event actually subsidizes the TNT. So if the TNT event had to stand alone, the entry fee would be much higher). In short, I really can't figure out how to process the afternoon only people with the additional 45 minute delay.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by echan »

JayPar wrote:
PAX index has a problem in that it treats all cars in a class as if they were prepped to the max for the class. All of the non-street tire classes would have to show up to CDC events wearing r-comps to be competitive, which would make it very expensive to drive.
We can change the values or increase the classes in the PAX to get more delineation if that helps. However, this might make the system more complex.
JayPar wrote: One idea I had... There seems to be a correlation between parking lot size and how well the index applies. For example, on the Frederick lot, horsepower means very little...it's all about being maneuverable and carrying speed in the sweepers (tires / suspension). Waldorf rewards horsepower more. So I'm wondering if there could be lot-specific index multipliers as well (which could be multiplied with the existing indexes). You could probably do some statistical analysis using this year's results to level out the playing field a bit (group the events by parking lot, then group the cars into horsepower ratings, then fiddle with multipliers for each parking lot to make the group averages come out even).
Neat idea. We selected the various index values with the assumption that participants would generally drive the same car and would have to drive most (if not all) the locations to get the minimum of 9 events or more so that the lower events could be dropped. If a participant wanted, they could drive a small maneuverable car in the smaller lots, then change to a higher horsepower vehicle for the large lots. Currently, it doesn't seem that participants have been really changing cars based on the lot. If anything, it appears that most if not everyone drives the same car all the time. In any case, I'll talk to Joe Seward if having different indexes for different locations would be a hard thing to do practically. It might be too much trouble for Joe's system but I promise to look into this suggestion.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by hufflepuff »

Waldorf is AWESOME. Can we get more of it next season? ;)

I like the idea of afternoon only. Perhaps instead of the 45 minute delay you could have one or two organizers have a parallel safety talk while the event is still proceeding, and the afternoon-only drivers could watch the cars vice actually walking the course. This would be an afternoon-only sacrifice.

I've had similar thoughts about the horsepower index. Winchester and Waldorf do allow higher horsepower cars to stretch their legs some as opposed to Frederick.

As far as changes to the index, Jim has a valid comment that some cars may be very favorably placed, and other very unfavorably. One way to help with the current index would be to make it a linear scale instead of discreet. You'd make a simple excel spreadsheet that calculates the index using a formula versus having the steps of the current system. So if 2001lbs - 2500lbs is currently worth 1.01, and your car weighs 2250, it would become 1.005, or something like that. Similarly, if 201 to 250 HP is currently worth 1.02, 225 hp would be worth 1.025. The trick here is not everyone will know their WHP or vehicle weight, but I expect most of the competitive folks may know those values pretty accurately, or folks can make their best estimate or ask for help.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by echan »

hufflepuff wrote:Waldorf is AWESOME. Can we get more of it next season? ;)

I like the idea of afternoon only. Perhaps instead of the 45 minute delay you could have one or two organizers have a parallel safety talk while the event is still proceeding, and the afternoon-only drivers could watch the cars vice actually walking the course. This would be an afternoon-only sacrifice.
We plan to have 5 events at Waldorf next year.

The problem of not allowing a course walk is a concern of us being negligent, especially if we allow a participant with little experience no do a course-walk then they have an incident. I could see how our defense in a civil court wouldn't stand up when all the other clubs have an organized course walk and we don't that is identified by a participant went off course and ran over a person. In the past, we have allow some of our regulars to run afternoon only (on a case by case issue) but only if we know that the person is very family with our autocrosses, have a valid reason why they couldn't make the morning driver's meeting, and rides with others before driving. I don't have a problem with this RARE exception especially at Harry Grove where the course is often similar to most of the other courses. The problem is when we make a blanket policy/option for an "afternoon only" option for everyone, including new people.

As a side note, the few times we did allow a "regular" to do afternoon runs, they didn't do nearly as well as normal because of the lack of preparation (only exception was Steve Catlin when he took the Parson's Miata without ever walking the course and got FTD on is one and only run). Again, the issue is not allowing the Steve Catlins to run afternoon only but to allow those with little or no autocross experience. I even thought of maybe we could allow the option for members only, but we often have participants join the club at their first event, and I don't feel comfortable allowing this option just after only one event.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by Jim Harris »

OK, I accept Ed's point that afternoon only is too much work. Maybe there is another way to equalize AM and PM sessions. I'll think about it.

I think the idea of using a linear index via spreadsheet, vice the current brackets, is great. If we can figure out how to do it without making it too complicated. In general, the CDC index does have the advantage of relative simplicity, so it's wise not to over think it, but linearizing it might work well because it could use the same three basic variables as inputs.

(You might end up deciding SCCA PAX is better, though, especially now that all the street classes are basically street tire classes. Also, there is a more or less accepted conversion of .975 often used to equate street/r compound competitors.)

Jim
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by glennkrueger »

echan wrote:
We already had one for an index for suspension below:

by marauder » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:02 pm
what about an indexing system for suspension.
Something like:
Mod Index Adjustment
Stock 1.00
Springs 1.01
Coilover/Springs&Shocks 1.02
Coilover/Springs&Shocks w/ nag Camber 1.03

Ed
I think if we want to index suspension, it should be based on actual rates, not just deviations from stock. A stock Crown Victoria shouldn't have the same suspension index as a stock Lotus Elise. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by echan »

glennkrueger wrote:
echan wrote:
We already had one for an index for suspension below:

by marauder » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:02 pm
what about an indexing system for suspension.
Something like:
Mod Index Adjustment
Stock 1.00
Springs 1.01
Coilover/Springs&Shocks 1.02
Coilover/Springs&Shocks w/ nag Camber 1.03

Ed
I think if we want to index suspension, it should be based on actual rates, not just deviations from stock. A stock Crown Victoria shouldn't have the same suspension index as a stock Lotus Elise. Just my 2 cents.
I think that's one reason for not indexing suspension. It get very complicated very quickly. As you mentioned stock suspension on various cars is already different. If we go with actual rates, then we have to figure all the other aspects of the vehicle to determine how it affects the vehicle (now we really smart and there will be tons of debate). I personally like to leave suspension out of the equation but am willing to try if we come to some consensus.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by BugBomb »

To address SCCA PAX, I don't see that being implemented as CDC's primary index for several reasons. We have many participants that do not like the constraints of PAX classes (For example, they don't want to use a Prepared-class index just because they installed an anti-lift kit or removed part of their interior). Many are also not familiar with the classes and what is allowed. We don't want to get into debates about whether someone should be able to run STS index because their stripped-out Camaro runs about the same times as the STS Miatas at Fedex. So it's not like we can run a "loose" version of PAX and still keep everyone happy.

Right now, CDC is sometimes referred to as the "starter" auto-x club, and indeed many people have started with CDC and moved on to SCCA without returning often. Most newcomers like the CDC index because it is very simple. Even if they don't know their exact weight or horsepower, it can usually be determined fairly accurately and quickly. As a club, we have to distinguish ourselves from SCCA. It's not because we don't like how they do things, but because being identical to SCCA will take away some of the diversity in our auto-x landscape. We'll end up with the same cars getting the same mods, and the same drivers winning.

I am not an opponent of SCCA's PAX index. It is certainly the most accurate and widely-used system available, and that's why I pushed to incorporate it into our timing software. I will work with Joe so that we can show the index values with the classes starting in 2015. We could possibly make PAX an additional index series if there is enough interest, but it has to be done carefully.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by Areddi »

Here is a thought that might accommodate the afternoon and morning concept: Like how Autocrossers Inc does it on their double days, make every day a morning and afternoon session, i.e. making each day "two" events. Sign up for the one you want, or both, and come get your 4 runs in the half that could for that "event's" time. Adjust prices accordingly on a half-day schema, i.e. $15 per "event" for members and $20 for non, which would come out the same. I'd probably recommend 2 or 3 heats per event at most to keep it moving. Not sure if this is feasible, but this would also allow for a course adjustment, AI typically does backwards but with some adjustment, so its like two events in one day. Switch over and course-walk for afternoon would need to be quick. I am not a proponent of this necessarily, just a thought for people to consider.

One thing I think is critical though is more emphasis on corner-worker balancing at stations, and radio etiquette. Things get a little wild west fairly often, and if larger lots are ever used (I hear Ripken is back in rotation possibly) than this gets important. Also, it is good training as a "beginner club" like Mike said to teach people about radio calls and such if they ever want to do more national type events.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by v10climber »

Areddi wrote:Here is a thought that might accommodate the afternoon and morning concept: Like how Autocrossers Inc does it on their double days, make every day a morning and afternoon session, i.e. making each day "two" events. Sign up for the one you want, or both, and come get your 4 runs in the half that could for that "event's" time. Adjust prices accordingly on a half-day schema, i.e. $15 per "event" for members and $20 for non, which would come out the same. I'd probably recommend 2 or 3 heats per event at most to keep it moving. Not sure if this is feasible, but this would also allow for a course adjustment, AI typically does backwards but with some adjustment, so its like two events in one day. Switch over and course-walk for afternoon would need to be quick. I am not a proponent of this necessarily, just a thought for people to consider.

One thing I think is critical though is more emphasis on corner-worker balancing at stations, and radio etiquette. Things get a little wild west fairly often, and if larger lots are ever used (I hear Ripken is back in rotation possibly) than this gets important. Also, it is good training as a "beginner club" like Mike said to teach people about radio calls and such if they ever want to do more national type events.
Ed has done a pretty good job outlining the difficulties associated with splitting the day up into AM groups and PM groups. Basically the end result would be less runs for more money. I think one of the things that CDC does really well is providing a low cost per run which is important to attract and maintain the interest of the casual autocrosser who is more interested in getting runs than they are in strong competition.

I agree some of the corner workers have gotten a little lax. We've tried to tighten up things lately but they still need work.
JayPar wrote:So I'm wondering if there could be lot-specific index multipliers as well (which could be multiplied with the existing indexes).
No. Just... No. The necessary data to generate a lot-based index isn't even close to existing.
hufflepuff wrote: One way to help with the current index would be to make it a linear scale instead of discreet. You'd make a simple excel spreadsheet that calculates the index using a formula versus having the steps of the current system. So if 2001lbs - 2500lbs is currently worth 1.01, and your car weighs 2250, it would become 1.005, or something like that. Similarly, if 201 to 250 HP is currently worth 1.02, 225 hp would be worth 1.025. The trick here is not everyone will know their WHP or vehicle weight, but I expect most of the competitive folks may know those values pretty accurately, or folks can make their best estimate or ask for help.
This is certainly an interesting idea. Joe will have to chime in to tell us how easy something like this would be to implement in the software.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by BugBomb »

My main concern with variable weight and HP index is how it will look on the results. Right now, we show our index label (C244) and it's not difficult to figure out what that means (street tires, 201-250HP, 3,001-3,500lbs). I'm not sure how to break that down into adjustable values without displaying all the relevant info (Street tires, 205HP, 3,450lbs) and then do we display the index value that we came up with? So where we originally had a tiny, 3-number code for the index, now we need to display 4 columns, most of them being bigger than the original class column?

I hope at some point we can get results into a much more advanced interface so we can incorporate data like this, but only show it when you need to see it. For example, you would hover your mouse pointer over a run (or touch a particular run time on your phone screen) and it would pop up with the index values for that run.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by JayPar »

OK, here's one... could we please increase the session timeout on this web site? I typed up a rather long post and lost it all because my session timed out before I submitted. Very annoying! (I'll retype the post later)
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by JayPar »

BugBomb wrote: I hope at some point we can get results into a much more advanced interface so we can incorporate data like this, but only show it when you need to see it. For example, you would hover your mouse pointer over a run (or touch a particular run time on your phone screen) and it would pop up with the index values for that run.

So as I understand it, the timing software logs to a CSV data file which you then import into a spreadsheet, massage some numbers, and then post to Google Docs? I'm thinking it wouldn't be too hard to write something where you upload the file, and it does all of that processing, saves the data to the DB, and makes it available via a fancier interface that allows things like viewing the car / driver info, sorting, multi-column filtering, show/hide columns, etc.. But I'm also wondering if we could go a step further and integrate all of the registration and management functionality with that, so the results calculations would already be aware of who the organizers are, etc.. (I have no idea you all handle that stuff now, or how the data is stored etc). It would also be nice if the results could account for switching cars during the day, though that's probably a tall order. I realize it would have to be compatible with the timing software, which might be difficult to change, but I'd be interested to learn more about the existing data / software and see what there is to work with.

I am a software developer by trade and work on dynamic web applications - everything from database design to web page coding and back end services. I could perhaps help design and write some software. For a limited time, you can log into my development system to see the app I have been working on for the last decade to see the kinds of things it can do. This app allows the MD State Highway Admin to clean up accidents more quickly, put messages on signs, monitor speeds, view camera video, etc.. It's highly complex and you could spend days clicking on links and still not exercise all of the functionality. Don't worry about messing anything up; this is just running on my PC and is not connected to the actual live system. All functionality is simulated. Desktop version of IE9+ or Firefox required. http://108.48.80.141:8080/trunk/app (credentials: jparsons / jparsons)
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by echan »

JayPar wrote: it available via a fancier interface that allows things like viewing the car / driver info, sorting, multi-column filtering, show/hide columns, etc..
I know that Joe could make an app so that people could see the results and real-time runs. However if more than 3 people get on the WiFi, it would start to slow down the routers and cause serious delays. That is one reason that we decided to just have one results computer that people can see that shows the results. As far as that other stuff you mentioned, Joe would be the person to chime in on that stuff.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by JayPar »

echan wrote:
JayPar wrote: it available via a fancier interface that allows things like viewing the car / driver info, sorting, multi-column filtering, show/hide columns, etc..
I know that Joe could make an app so that people could see the results and real-time runs. However if more than 3 people get on the WiFi, it would start to slow down the routers and cause serious delays. That is one reason that we decided to just have one results computer that people can see that shows the results. As far as that other stuff you mentioned, Joe would be the person to chime in on that stuff.
I wasn't even referring to a real time interface, but that might be possible too. Instead of having people pull from a web site hosted at the event, perhaps the timing software could post the data (formatted to minimize size) to an external server, which would then format the data and handle the web site traffic. Of course, it would have to be done in a fault tolerant / asynchronous way so that if the timing software-to-web server connection was down (or flaky) it wouldn't affect the operation of the timing software, but that should be possible IMO.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by qtrracer »

About the afternoon only session. Do a pilot for members only. Require written pre-tech by the member, sort of how the SCCA does it for HPDEs. Sign the release when you pay as always. Most are experienced enough that a walk while nice wouldn't be absolutely necessary. See how it goes from an administrative stand-point. Adjust or eliminate as experience dictates.

As for indexes and the like, at first this was not something of interest to me or Julie. We joke about just trying to get into the top 20, which seldom occurred. This had little effect on enthusiasm or interest.

But last season I changed from SCCA CP to CAM. Suddenly I was competitive with the other cars that qualified for that class. Enthusiasm jumped. Of course the friendly spirit of competition was much greater since the cars were so closely packed that mere tenths made a difference.

Drag racing has a solution - called dial-in. For CDC, one could do an analysis of times over a season and determine which cars are closely packed and make those "classes". No tires, suspension, horsepower, etc. Would some sand-bag? I guess that is possible but it is difficult enough on the drag strip let alone on an autocross course. But to monitor such things if a driver "breaks-out" (that means both slower or faster)once or twice, then "promote" him/her to the next relevant class. In this way, there will be defined competitive groups with times close enough together to drive up enthusiasm and the competitive spirit. Of course, more winners but that is attractive.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by hufflepuff »

BugBomb wrote:My main concern with variable weight and HP index is how it will look on the results. Right now, we show our index label (C244) and it's not difficult to figure out what that means (street tires, 201-250HP, 3,001-3,500lbs). I'm not sure how to break that down into adjustable values without displaying all the relevant info (Street tires, 205HP, 3,450lbs) and then do we display the index value that we came up with? So where we originally had a tiny, 3-number code for the index, now we need to display 4 columns, most of them being bigger than the original class column?

I hope at some point we can get results into a much more advanced interface so we can incorporate data like this, but only show it when you need to see it. For example, you would hover your mouse pointer over a run (or touch a particular run time on your phone screen) and it would pop up with the index values for that run.
The weight, hp, and tire modifiers could just become your new overall index value and this would be displayed in the results. Not neccessary to post the individual values of the compound index. For those who are curious, the actual weight tire power values could be in hidden columns.
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by Nathan Atkins »

It seems to me that just having the "SCCA class" option satisfies me for comparison's sake, I like the simplicity of the CDC system. That said in my first season in 2012 i made a mod that didn't effect my CDC index (rear diff update to newer version) that threw me right into SCCA street-prepared category, which i didn't know about at the time. I think now that people see the selectable SCCA classes that may pique their curiosity enough to where they inquire before they mod.

Re: afternoon only, maybe you could pre-check-in online like an airline flight the night before so your registration is locked in and you pay/slot-is-filled regardless of whether you arrive or not. Open this only to experienced individuals who can be relied on to self tech (this does not include Nate who forgets to remove his floor mat every f*%$# event). and as for course walk, just catch a ride with someone, you'll see the course at speed without getting in the way and CDC aren't ridiculous douches about ride-alongs the way SCCA is.

Jay, highlight and ctrl+C your text before you hit submit for your long posts, if the page is timed out, reopen and ctrl+V your text back in. I've got in the habit of doing this on lots of sites and it's good practice.
marauder
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by marauder »

Suspension can be hard to quantify as a miata and a crown-vic have very different base suspensions. To me though the two biggest upgrades you can make to your car for autocross is Tires and Suspension. Those things are going to give you the biggest bump in time, and so they both should be account for. The break-down I gave was a very basic idea, and probably could be adjusted.
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Areddi
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by Areddi »

Any rumblings on venue or schedule stuff yet?
Check out my YouTube channel with Autocross videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAreddi
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echan
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by echan »

Areddi wrote:Any rumblings on venue or schedule stuff yet?
We are working on the schedule right now. I know we will be at Waldorf 6 times next year. I have the tentative dates but will post them when the other location dates are secured (we often have to move things around to match the various location schedules).

Ed
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glennkrueger
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Re: Ideas for the 2015 Season

Post by glennkrueger »

echan wrote:
Areddi wrote:Any rumblings on venue or schedule stuff yet?
I know we will be at Waldorf 6 times next year.

Ed
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Math puns are the first sine of madness!
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