Improvements for CDC Indexing for 2009

[Jim Harris]

Really good suggestions. Though I am gradually getting legislated out of competitiveness.....

There is no gain in CDC events from having more than 350 RWHP. How about...

Vehicle Weight Multiplier
Vehicle weight < 2000 lbs = 1.03
Vehicle weight 2000 to 2500 lbs = 1.02
Vehicle weight 2501 to 3000 lbs = 1.00
Vehicle weight 3001 to 3500 lbs = 0.99
Vehicle weight > 3500 lbs = 0.98

Rear Wheel Horsepower Multiplier
Below 150 hp = 0.99
150 hp to 200 hp = 1.00
201 hp to 250 hp = 1.01
251 hp to 300 hp = 1.02
301 hp and up 1.03

Add a Suspension Multiplier if you want, but keep it simple:
Suspension Multiplier
Completely OEM = 0.99
Swaybars and or shocks (stock or aftermarket on original mounting points) = 1.00
Coilovers or Camber plates = 1.01
Coilovers and Camber plates = 1.02

Tire Multiplier
Street Tires = 1.00 (tread rating 140+)
R-Compounds = 1.03

Let a thousand thoughts contend, as Mao Zedong once said.

Jim
2008 Bullitt

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

I think Ed just didn't want to figure out which Honda motors made 90hp with VTEC (SOHC D15Z1) and which can make 220hp+ with nothing more than bolt-ons (K20A).

i understand that and well any car with the K series is automatically out of small bore since they'll be a 2.0+ liter car(K20, K24).

V-TEC was not allowed in the 2008 small bore series. So we really aren't changing any of the rules for 2009. If you have a V-TEC motor, we didn't make it clear enough. Kyle is correct that what we really don't want is the large HP small bore motor. You have to realize that the HP with all the cars in the series are all at most in the 130 HP range. I understand your point, and the organizers can talk about it before the 2009 season starts.

you can still have small horsepower motors with v-tec. '92-95 civic EX/SI's-D16Z6 has v-tec and is rated at 125hp. '96-'99- D16Y8 has v-tec and is rated at 127hp. '01-'05 D17A2 has v-tec and is rated at 127hp. probably just outlaw the B/H/K series motors since they all produce 160+ horsepower(and are above 1.8L). just for comparison some miatas have a 1.8 rwd platform producing 140hp and lsd(sport package)...with bolt-ons on my car i can't make that...

maybe just put a horsepower restriction for small bore series? 150hp from factory?

just a request/suggestion, all up to u guys.

Whether it's SCCA, NASA or CDC read the rules before picking a class... V-TEC hasn't ever been permitted in 'Small Bore'.
The 'Small Bore' rules as they're now written would permit other very light DSP cars that can have NA non-V-TEC 170+ HP motors.

Ted

i always read and stick by the rules. i like fair competition, its the best. i've read the rules for Solo STS class so many times i've practically memorized it lol. since the rules state no v-tec, and i have the EX model which came with the D16Z6 v-tec motor, i'll relinquish my 1st place spot from the '08 small bore series. i read the rules when i first heard of the series and i must have missed the no v-tec rule. otherwise i wouldn't even bother. it's only fair for the other competitors who fought for standings.

[etherpool]

can still have small horsepower motors with v-tec. '92-95 civic EX/SI's-D16Z6 has v-tec and is rated at 125hp. '96-'99- D16Y8 has v-tec and is rated at 127hp. '01-'05 D17A2 has v-tec and is rated at 127hp. probably just outlaw the B/H/K series motors since they all produce 160+ horsepower(and are above 1.8L). just for comparison some miatas have a 1.8 rwd platform producing 140hp and lsd(sport package)...with bolt-ons on my car i can't make that...

maybe just put a horsepower restriction for small bore series? 150hp from factory?

just a request/suggestion, all up to u guys.

i always read and stick by the rules. i like fair competition, its the best. i've read the rules for Solo STS class so many times i've practically memorized it lol. since the rules state no v-tec, and i have the EX model which came with the D16Z6 v-tec motor, i'll relinquish my 1st place spot from the '08 small bore series. i read the rules when i first heard of the series and i must have missed the no v-tec rule. otherwise i wouldn't even bother. it's only fair for the other competitors who fought for standings.

This is a tough call because it is much easier to get HP out of a Honda or Miata. You can throw a grand worth of bolt on's on a 1.8 VW and have a hard time breaking 125 HP depending on if it's a 16V or 8V. Not sure how to go about checking HP ratings at an event. We seem to have enough going on when we get there in the morning. I agree that we need to somehow make it fair and balance competition with fun.

That being said, I have no problem running against AJ's Honda. I've been in this car and think a huge part of the reason he is so quick is driver and suspension, not motor. Also, at times this class feels like the Miata class not the small bore class. I gotta find a way to get more Dubs to show up!

I didn't mean to get this thread going again. Looked like it was kinda dead when I posted. Sorry Ed!!

[mla163]

i always read and stick by the rules. i like fair competition, its the best. i've read the rules for Solo STS class so many times i've practically memorized it lol. since the rules state no v-tec, and i have the EX model which came with the D16Z6 v-tec motor, i'll relinquish my 1st place spot from the '08 small bore series. i read the rules when i first heard of the series and i must have missed the no v-tec rule. otherwise i wouldn't even bother. it's only fair for the other competitors who fought for standings.

It's unfortunate to hear this. AJ is a good driver and IMO earned the win. The car is definitely in the spirit of "small bore"; it is light and low horsepower. I always thought that the civics qualified for the small bore class, I think all EXs and SIs have VTEC. Even with it, I don't know if the car is pumping out more HP than some miatas. The small bore rules in the blog note that 1.8L Hondas with VTEC are not allowed. But AJ is running a 1.6L with VTEC. Not that this is a loophole, but I think it deserves a clarification.

Ed Chan, does AJs car qualify for the small bore class?

[ButtDyno]

I like most of this idea conceptually (We can take a poll to to come up with a consensus with the exact multiplier values and exact cut-off values of each, but the concept sounds good) , except the suspension modifier. Like Gonz said, we have enough to worry about without checking suspension on cars.

You don't have to check anything. Are you dynoing or weighing the cars now? Let the competitors police things.

[saint_foo]

Bryan Rutkowski is driving a Miata w/ a rear LSD. AJ has a weak VTEC motor. We definitely need clearer ruling on what cars are allowed. STS/STS2 cars are a good measure.

However, is Bryan's car faster than AJ's? Should there be some sort of indexing so cars like my Miata could compete w/ them?

[FredK]

I think we should drop the whole thing. Let's just have one event, five cars, a cobra, subaru, miata,civic, maybe a country squire. Everyone gets one run in each, lowest total the time wins. Then what will everyone say??? Then we can just go back to driving our cars.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

i don't mean to turn this into a big deal or anything, like many have said before, we're out there to have fun first and foremost. starting up classes is just an extra part of the fun. I'm just suggesting ideas to a class to try to involve more competitors and make things more fun. friendly competition is all i want.

[ProDarwin]

On the subject of the small bore series... unless I am mistaken, the original rules read:

1.8 Honda Civic (no turbo, no supercharger, no VTEC, original block and displacement)

Since AJ's Civic is a 1.6, does it still qualify?

I like the modified multipliers, obviously someone would need to look at them closely. I really do think a suspension multiplier is very necessary. I also agree with John... nobody's weighing cars nor throwing them on the dyno right now - why would you guys need to check the suspension on vehicles? Leave it up to the competitors to police each other.

[kyle.bowker]

But AJ is running a 1.6L with VTEC.

I know AJ doesn't have a B-series Honda motor but you cannot simply say a Honda motor with <=1.6L displacement and VTEC (or no VTEC) is okay for the small bore series. Stock B16A% motors (1.6L w/ VTEC) put out 160hp+ naturally aspirated from the factory. Tuned B16B (Honda Civic Type R) motors are capable of putting down over 200whp naturally aspirated.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

But AJ is running a 1.6L with VTEC.

I know AJ doesn't have a B-series Honda motor but you cannot simply say a Honda motor with <=1.6L displacement and VTEC (or no VTEC) is okay for the small bore series. Stock B16A% motors (1.6L w/ VTEC) put out 160hp+ naturally aspirated from the factory. Tuned B16B (Honda Civic Type R) motors are capable of putting down over 200whp naturally aspirated.

that's why i proposed the horsepower limit of 150 from factory insted of breaking it down to v-tec or no v-tec.. D16 v-tec motor with bolt ons(i/h/e/pulleys) would be lucky to gain 15hp(even less to the wheels). i don't think i've ever seen a fully built D16 make near or over 200whp n/a. no boost, i think the max you could get out of a fully built D16 is 170whp, but most would see around 150whp. i've seen well built B18's make 180whp n/a, which still isnt much.

again just a suggestion on the horsepower limit..

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

I know AJ doesn't have a B-series Honda motor but you cannot simply say a Honda motor with <=1.6L displacement and VTEC (or no VTEC) is okay for the small bore series. Stock B16A% motors (1.6L w/ VTEC) put out 160hp+ naturally aspirated from the factory. Tuned B16B (Honda Civic Type R) motors are capable of putting down over 200whp naturally aspirated.

hmm wont let me edit but..

since u brought up displacement, the miatas have 1.8L's along with more horsepower from factory, lsd option from factory, 50/50 weight, and are rwd. stock with r-comps and good driver, its already a fight to keep up lol.

[DrSeuss]

I know AJ doesn't have a B-series Honda motor but you cannot simply say a Honda motor with <=1.6L displacement and VTEC (or no VTEC) is okay for the small bore series. Stock B16A% motors (1.6L w/ VTEC) put out 160hp+ naturally aspirated from the factory. Tuned B16B (Honda Civic Type R) motors are capable of putting down over 200whp naturally aspirated.

A B16 motor may make 160hp+ but that's at 8500 RPMs. For the last couple of events, I've been reprogramming to ECU to set the RPM at 6500 so I'm under 150 HP. My car dyno's at 170 HP at 8400 RPM. My raw times haven't dropped at all. In fact they've improved which I attribute to me just driving better. I typically short-shift into 2nd gear since I hate driving in first and once I'm above 4000 RPMs my torque curve is flat so it doesn't really make a difference. The typical CDC couse does not allow me to rev out to 6500 RPM let alone 8400 RPM.

[etherpool]

I know AJ doesn't have a B-series Honda motor but you cannot simply say a Honda motor with <=1.6L displacement and VTEC (or no VTEC) is okay for the small bore series. Stock B16A% motors (1.6L w/ VTEC) put out 160hp+ naturally aspirated from the factory. Tuned B16B (Honda Civic Type R) motors are capable of putting down over 200whp naturally aspirated.

A B16 motor may make 160hp+ but that's at 8500 RPMs. For the last couple of events, I've been reprogramming to ECU to set the RPM at 6500 so I'm under 150 HP. My car dyno's at 170 HP at 8400 RPM. My raw times haven't dropped at all. In fact they've improved which I attribute to me just driving better. I typically short-shift into 2nd gear since I hate driving in first and once I'm above 4000 RPMs my torque curve is flat so it doesn't really make a difference. The typical CDC couse does not allow me to rev out to 6500 RPM let alone 8400 RPM.

170HP out of a 1.6 NA! I need a Honda! Why do I have to be German loyal?!?

There are other factors to consider as well. I know it may be an odd way to do it but making every event should count for something. The only reason I finished where I did in the standings is because I ran consistent times and made every event minus 1. Only reason I didn't make that is because of a death in the family. I even ran two events (one in Frederick and one in Bowie) on three occasions. Of all the events we run I only see certain guys there every week. In the end, if the final standings are what your shooting for, you can't win if you don't make the event. IMO for the small bore class split the class based on tires and leave the rest alone. Your not going to make everyone happy so do your best and go with it. The guys who are really serious will step up and the guys there for fun will have it. Just let me know before I spend more money on my car!!

[DrSeuss]

170HP out of a 1.6 NA! I need a Honda! Why do I have to be German loyal?!?

Actually, it's a 1.8L NA motor. That's 170 WHP not crank. However it's a low torque motor 105-110 ft-lbs from 4000-8400 RPMs.

[echan]

170HP out of a 1.6 NA! I need a Honda! Why do I have to be German loyal?!?

There are other factors to consider as well. I know it may be an odd way to do it but making every event should count for something. The only reason I finished where I did in the standings is because I ran consistent times and made every event minus 1. Only reason I didn't make that is because of a death in the family. I even ran two events (one in Frederick and one in Bowie) on three occasions. Of all the events we run I only see certain guys there every week. In the end, if the final standings are what your shooting for, you can't win if you don't make the event. IMO for the small bore class split the class based on tires and leave the rest alone. Your not going to make everyone happy so do your best and go with it. The guys who are really serious will step up and the guys there for fun will have it. Just let me know before I spend more money on my car!!

The 2008 small bore series dropped the lowest 5, since the series started out as the vintage small bore series (first two events). This policy allowed those to start participating in the small bore series and still be able to miss 3 other events. Normally, the series (Index and small bore) will drop the lowest 4 events.

CDC runs a lot of autox events, dropping the lowest 4 allow people to attend family obligations, go on vacations, or just sleep in, but still be in the points running. If we didn't allow any events to be dropped, many would not even consider even trying for the points running the moment they missed an event. Conversely if we dropped 8 events, people may not care about missing events because they can miss so many events. So we made a subjective amount of dropping 4 events. At this level, the participant would typically have to attend some Bowie events and some Harry Grove events (now also some Summit events).

[FamilyTruckster]

I think we should drop the whole thing. Let's just have one event, five cars, a cobra, subaru, miata,civic, maybe a country squire. Everyone gets one run in each, lowest total the time wins. Then what will everyone say??? Then we can just go back to driving our cars.

That would be interesting.

As for the hp wars.... I have been tossing around building a crown vic sedan. I could probably get it down to 3500lbs, run 275 somethings, and have a mere 150hp AFTER adding mods to the 302- but I'd have 250+ ftlbs....at 1800 rpm. And a 5 speed. Should be able to run much faster than the wagon, and not have to worry about any multipliers.

[etherpool]

170HP out of a 1.6 NA! I need a Honda! Why do I have to be German loyal?!?

There are other factors to consider as well. I know it may be an odd way to do it but making every event should count for something. The only reason I finished where I did in the standings is because I ran consistent times and made every event minus 1. Only reason I didn't make that is because of a death in the family. I even ran two events (one in Frederick and one in Bowie) on three occasions. Of all the events we run I only see certain guys there every week. In the end, if the final standings are what your shooting for, you can't win if you don't make the event. IMO for the small bore class split the class based on tires and leave the rest alone. Your not going to make everyone happy so do your best and go with it. The guys who are really serious will step up and the guys there for fun will have it. Just let me know before I spend more money on my car!!

The 2008 small bore series dropped the lowest 5, since the series started out as the vintage small bore series (first two events). This policy allowed those to start participating in the small bore series and still be able to miss 3 other events. Normally, the series (Index and small bore) will drop the lowest 4 events.

CDC runs a lot of autox events, dropping the lowest 4 allow people to attend family obligations, go on vacations, or just sleep in, but still be in the points running. If we didn't allow any events to be dropped, many would not even consider even trying for the points running the moment they missed an event. Conversely if we dropped 8 events, people may not care about missing events because they can miss so many events. So we made a subjective amount of dropping 4 events. At this level, the participant would typically have to attend some Bowie events and some Harry Grove events (now also some Summit events).

That's the nice thing about the series. If your run fairly consistent and attend the events you can have fun and feel competitive. Maybe I'm missing something, but finishing third behind AJ who ran 3 or 4 seconds faster than me sometimes is kinda cool. And it gives me something reasonable to shoot for. A little money and more skill and I may catch up. I think getting too involved with trying to figure out who has what HP gets way too complicated and makes too much work for the organizers. Seems to be good now.

[Dan133]

I'm kind of late to this party but I want to put my $.02 in anyway. How about a system based on a simple calculation of power to weight ratio? The onus would be on drivers of stripped/modified cars to provide reasonably accurate power and weight numbers(we can all be honest--after all, these are our friends we would be cheating). Adding modifiers for R-Comps and suspension mod's would then give a very level playing field. This sounds good to me but I just have a feeling that somebody--everybody?? is about to make swiss cheese out of it.

[etherpool]

I'm kind of late to this party but I want to put my $.02 in anyway. How about a system based on a simple calculation of power to weight ratio? The onus would be on drivers of stripped/modified cars to provide reasonably accurate power and weight numbers(we can all be honest--after all, these are our friends we would be cheating). Adding modifiers for R-Comps and suspension mod's would then give a very level playing field. This sounds good to me but I just have a feeling that somebody--everybody?? is about to make swiss cheese out of it.

And the waiting begins...

[mla163]

... How about a system based on a simple calculation of power to weight ratio? The onus would be on drivers of stripped/modified cars to provide reasonably accurate power and weight numbers(we can all be honest--after all, these are our friends we would be cheating). Adding modifiers for R-Comps and suspension mod's would then give a very level playing field....

I agree. That's pretty much what the system does now. The factors are power, weight and tires. Instead of using the specific numbers, we round it off into brackets for simplicity. I believe in SCCA/NASA spec racing, they use the power/weight criteria. But, they weigh the cars at the track and I think they randomly dyno cars.

[ButtDyno]

But AJ is running a 1.6L with VTEC.

I know AJ doesn't have a B-series Honda motor but you cannot simply say a Honda motor with <=1.6L displacement and VTEC (or no VTEC) is okay for the small bore series. Stock B16A% motors (1.6L w/ VTEC) put out 160hp+ naturally aspirated from the factory. Tuned B16B (Honda Civic Type R) motors are capable of putting down over 200whp naturally aspirated.

Have you ever driven a Civic EX from those years? It is massively slow in a straight line, like slower than a Miata slow. I have probably 10,000 miles driving time in a 98 Civic EX (my wife had one, which makes me feel even worse when I lose to AJ in raw time) and 30K in a Miata as firsthand experience. It might technically have VTEC in the same way that a 2008 Civic EX has VTEC, but the transition is absolutely nothing like a B series or K series engine - it is barely noticeable. If someone didn't tell you the engine was VTEC equipped, you would have no idea from driving it. It is an economy car engine and was never intended for anything else.

[Gonz]

let's ban all cars except '02 & '03 WRX's ........

The small bore series is going to become a sissies series if we keep restricting what can compete. No vtecs ( too fast), no race tires ( too fast), no rotories (too fast), no turbos (too fast). Let's just have everyone drive around in a 56 HP 1500cc MG. That would surely be fun to watch.

Guess I would allow the 3 cylinder Geo Metro, for some added competition and a Yugo if anyone is man enough to show up in one. Wake me when the "small bore series" is off the track. It's going to be like watching the "kiddie karts" at a Fedex Event..........snooze.

Or, we could put some more life into the series and open it up to everthing under 2000 cc, as this is the normal definition of "small bore" such as the the WRC championship, the British Touring CC, the World Touring Car Championship, etc.

2.0L and anything goes. Big turbo, small turbo, diesel, whatever.

[etherpool]

let's ban all cars except '02 & '03 WRX's ........

The small bore series is going to become a sissies series if we keep restricting what can compete. No vtecs ( too fast), no race tires ( too fast), no rotories (too fast), no turbos (too fast). Let's just have everyone drive around in a 56 HP 1500cc MG. That would surely be fun to watch.

Guess I would allow the 3 cylinder Geo Metro, for some added competition and a Yugo if anyone is man enough to show up in one. Wake me when the "small bore series" is off the track. It's going to be like watching the "kiddie karts" at a Fedex Event..........snooze.

Or, we could put some more life into the series and open it up to everthing under 2000 cc, as this is the normal definition of "small bore" such as the the WRC championship, the British Touring CC, the World Touring Car Championship, etc.

2.0L and anything goes. Big turbo, small turbo, diesel, whatever.

Not sure if your serious or not but what the hell. I'll keep it going a while longer.

I think that defeats the spirit of the class. Maybe the "small bore series" is not a good name. I'm not a Honda guy so I don't know too much about VTEC's. Overall, I'm not opposed to them as long as they are the 1.6 version. But if cars like that crazy sick white Honda (Brian K. i think) then we may as well get rid of the class. Having cars with r-comps measured at the same level as cars with street tires just seems strange to me, but whatever. Overall it was alot of fun last year feeling competitive and then watching the big boys run. There seems to be plenty of life watching WRX's and Cobras with the occasional Lotus or Noble thrown in!

[Gonz]

Nope. I wasn't being serious.

However, I do think it's odd that in the overall FTD race it's "anything goes" and whenever someone mentions that certain cars are "not competitive" ( like my Mustang for example) the typical response is "get a faster car" or something along those lines.

In contrast the small bore series is starting to sounds like's it's getting too restrictive. Just because the motor is small (puny?) doesnt' mean it has to be slow, or low HP cars. Don't know why they want to exclude the cars that make better use of technology. That's the opposite of racing which is supposed to reward technological advancement. It's just odd, since this is in the end a contest of speed.


PS. where was this small bore series when I was driving a 1.6L Miata ?