Improvements for CDC Indexing for 2009

[ProDarwin]

I understood the concept of the small bore series to encourage economical (cheap) competition. You can pick up a Miata pretty cheap and still be competitive. However my Saturn (one of the cheapest cars to ever grace a CDC autocross) wasn't allowed in the class due to its powerhouse 1.9L engine.

I agree that its overly restrictive. I say keep it simple... 1.8L and under, no engine swaps, no aftermarket forced induction, 100 treadwear and higher. Banning AJ's Civic because it has Vtec is pretty dumb.

I'm not opposed to a <2.0L unlimited class though

[etherpool]

Ed, when are you going to announce the changes, if any, to the classes? I want to do some mods but don't want to bump out of class.

[echan]

Ed, when are you going to announce the changes, if any, to the classes? I want to do some mods but don't want to bump out of class.

I was going to bring all the suggestions to the award lunch (probably 3rd weekend on Feb). I think the concensus seems to

1. Tweak the HP, weight, and tire multipliers for the index series.
2. Pretty much keep the Small Bore the same but allow the SOHC Vtec motors, possibly an index of r-compounds.

I think some talked about bumping the displacement on Small up to 2.0 liters (as many series use this cut-off). However, at many cars at the 2.0 Liter displacement definately have a much higher level of performance than the cars currently in the series. The whole idea is to keep the series cheap so that if one wanted to buy a cheap car for autox, they can do it without too much money. In the end, the displacement will be kept to the cars generally 1.8 liters and below. In addition, the cars have to be listed in the approved cars list (don't want a bunch of Lotus/Westfield 7's claiming to be qualified).

The cars eligible are the following with stock blocks, and normally aspirated:

Sprites
Midgets
Austin Mini (original Mini)
MGA
MGB
Triumph Spitfire
1.6 and 1.8 Miatas (no turbo, no superchargers)
1.8 VW Sciracco
1.8 Honda Civic (no turbo, no supercharger, no VTEC, original block and displacement)
1.6 BMW Mini (normally aspirated, not the Cooper S)
1st Generation RX7 12A motor only, stock motor only with stock exhaust, non-turbo, non-supercharger (no GSL or GSL-SE cars)
First Generation (1984-1989) Toyota MR2 normally aspirated
Honda Fit 1.5L normally aspirated (109 hp)

Any other car normally aspirated and under 1.8 liter can request to be added to the list.

Lastly, another suggestion that was that we make the prize levels the same for the Index Series and the Small Bore Series. They felt that the Small Bore Series was too basis with a Season Pass Grand Prize while the Small Bore Grand Prize was just 4 passes So, we will probably make the prize for both Series the following:

1st Place 8 free passes
2nd Place 4 free passes
3rd Place 2 free passes
4th Place 1 free pass

I hope this will make everything more fair. However I'm sure that with each year, we'll have to change the rules each time!

Ed

[etherpool]

Fine job! Thanks much!

[KanosWRX]

I think we should have a drag race between my Miata and AJ's Civic. That will settle the HP issue I think But then again I don't make the rules.. just have to follow them and if you don't like them you don't have to race there... kinda why I stopped competing with the SCCA, to many rules and way to many classes. I like to compete but I also like to have a little leeway in things I do so I can still have fun.

Anyway my two cents on the whole index.

1. R-Comps do need to a higher index, especially the very soft and super sticky Hoosiers and what not. They are a night and day difference to RA-1's. Maybe they need to be bumped up to 1.04 or even 1.05 and RA-1's should be 1.02 or 1.03??

2. The small bore series needs to have the r-comp index as well... might be bad for me as I might be running r-comps in 2009, but still its only fair.

3. Suspension is very very tricky I think... Things like camber plates or camber bolts really help on an auto-x course, after all its all about cornering. I think maybe a simple index, 1.0 for stock, 1.01 for springs and struts, 1.02 for camber plates or any aftermarket camber adjusting mechanisms would be fair.

4 2.0 liter cars really should not be in the small bore series, there are to many high hp 2.0 liter NA, not to mention turbo cars out there. It will defeat the purpose of the series.

Anyways I look forward to the awards lunch where we can discuss all of this. And in the end, even if nothing changed between the last season and this one. It is still better then the index we had before

[T ARE 6]

I didn't see if there was a separate listing for small bore series. When I searched, most of the comments seemed to be on this post / thread.

I was trying to figure out if I was a candidate for the small bore series. I think that my car meets the spirit of the class, but might miss out on the displacement criteria.

1989 Honda Prelude Si. Totally stock except for the wheels / tires. (Which I'm not thrilled with - but they were CHEAP!)

The engine is listed as 2 liter, I think it is something like 1958cc.
I think it is 130 or 135 horsepower.
The car weighs something like 2700lbs though.

So does this car not meet the spirit of the class just because it has a whopping 2liter engine?

To whom do I appeal to in order try and get included in the small bore series?

FWIW- I was MORE than pleased with my performance at Summit Point. I thought I did much better than usual.
Maybe I'm just used to slipping around all over the place.

Scott.

[echan]

1989 Honda Prelude Si. Totally stock except for the wheels / tires. (Which I'm not thrilled with - but they were CHEAP!)

The engine is listed as 2 liter, I think it is something like 1958cc.

So does this car not meet the spirit of the class just because it has a whopping 2liter engine?

Scott.

Scott,

The small bore series is generally limited to cars 1.8 liters and below. Although, your vehicle is only about 135 hp, 2 liter motors can typically be modified to produce a lot more hp, which is a concern since we allow any engine modification as long as it is normally aspirated.

In short, it we started allowing 2 liter motors, it would open the series up to a lot of cars that can be modified that would blow away the current small bore cars.

Ed

[edfooliu]

I'm a little confused... I ticked the box for small bore series for this last (04/18) event at summit point after seeing this in the FAQ regarding eligible cars:

1972-2009 Honda Civic (original engine type and displacement, no VTEC except single overhead cam variants)

Since my car ('98 civic ex, D16Y8) has a 1.6L SOHC VTEC, I figured it was elligible.

Just found this thread, though and saw this:

1.8 Honda Civic (no turbo, no supercharger, no VTEC, original block and displacement)

This, along with a lot of talk about VTEC in general being excluded...

Is the FAQ the latest/official word, or is the no-VTEC policy in this thread the official rule? I wont dispute the rule itself since 1) it seems like you guys have been over it quite a bit and 2) I sure as heck don't want to push for mid-season rule changes. Plus with the results up, I now have a horse in the race (...rather, i _am_ a horse in the race), so color my opinion quite biased...

[kyle.bowker]

Your Honda should be eligible. Contact Ted Joseph, the event's head organizer, via e-mail at ted.joseph (at) capitaldrivingclub.com. It'll get fixed when the results are revised. There are always revisions to the results due to issues like this.

[edfooliu]

Awesome, thanks! Results are fine the way they stand.

[Rice & Gravy]

I emailed Ted on a correction for the 4/18 results. Is that the right person to contact? I am down for a 51.26 but my best was a 50.6 in the afternoon.

Thanks

Steve Gray

[echan]

Ted is the correct person.

Ed

[ButtDyno]

So, I see a 91 and a 93 MR2 listed in the small bore results for 5-9. Those are 2.2L cars... are they eligible now?

No. John listed those cars in error.

Ed

[echan]

So, I see a 91 and a 93 MR2 listed in the small bore results for 5-9. Those are 2.2L cars... are they eligible now?

I removed and updated the past results taking out the 91 and later MR2s.

Sorry for the confusion. These cars have a 2.2 liter motor and can be made to be much faster than the current cars in small bore.

Ed

[awptickes]

WHP vs BHP?

I didn't know that people were signing up their cars with a WHP number on the HP blank. I natrually (and probably wrongly) assumed everyone was using crank HP.

Should I be converting my car's rated power (117 HP Crank) to WHP? This changes my HP multiplier, and would change my ranking significantly.

Do I have to prove my (100% stock) car's power rating with dyno graphs, or is the mathmatical exercise enough proof?

[eage8]

WHP vs BHP?

I didn't know that people were signing up their cars with a WHP number on the HP blank. I natrually (and probably wrongly) assumed everyone was using crank HP.

Should I be converting my car's rated power (117 HP Crank) to WHP? This changes my HP multiplier, and would change my ranking significantly.

Do I have to prove my (100% stock) car's power rating with dyno graphs, or is the mathmatical exercise enough proof?

117 * .90 = 105 hp at the wheels.

front wheel drive cars have very low drivetrain loss as I posted in the other thread.

For most people it doesn't really matter if they list whp or flywheel hp, and it is in the FAQ, so if someone is listing the wrong number it's their fault. I might be a good idea to right "horsepower at the wheels" or something on the registration page.

[eage8]

haha wow, I just googled some dyno sheets and your right... it only has 95 whp, that sucks. The Fit transmission must be made of lead or something, or they just overstated the flywheel hp like manufacturers have been known to do.

my bad

[draxcaliber]

WHP can vary alot too depending on what kind of dyno it is measured on. some dyno's are ego boosters and read higher, some are heart breakers and read very strictly and low, so it depends on where you get your car dyno'ed. and the catagories are fairly broad, and again, it is all about having fun. otherwise people would be taking their rides to a dyno dynamics dynomometer with dirty clogged air filters and a sponge jammed in the exhaust pipe with 40 pound wheels on the car so their whp reading would be dismal and thus their multipliers would be lower.