INDEX SYSTEM

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AUTOXR1
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INDEX SYSTEM

Post by AUTOXR1 »

The index system in place has been broken since its inception. This weekend proves it beyond a doubt! An index that resets or drops makes no sense whatsoever and is just asking for the SANDBAGGERS of the world to manipulate the system, particularly when the club allows up to 4 drops per race season. All of us know it is abused and manipulated. It also is not serving the newbie base or slower cars in general as half of the total cumulative points are based on raw times (favoring fast cars) and the other half on an index that has mixed reviews and results. Thus, if a club that rewards driver's with end of the year results and monetary reward is to be fair (or set up to be manipulation free), it needs some repair.

Some suggestions. 1) if you want to keep the index "personal" don't have the index based on only the last few races. Instead have it be a permanent index that is cumulative. Alternatively, you can have the index ignore events that are well outside of a target range (allowing a discount or complete disregard for unusually slow times that would account for running someone else's much slower car for an event, sandbagging, or even hitting cones on each run). An example of this can be seen at the bottom of the 10/6 event. Another variation would be to not have the index drop. This assumes that one's skillset increases over time up until a maximum level of proficiency. Driver's skill do not go up and down over time. They are a near constant, with lesser experienced drivers having a steeper learning curve. Accordingly, the indexes should not fluctuate dramatically from week to week like they do. Someone who has a bad week should not be rewarded with a lower index, but this is done repeatedly under the current index system. Under the existing system, about the only car who's index is generally consistent is Karwan's. And that is because he runs 100% every event. His car is right at the top of every event and his index reflects that. The same cannot be said for several other cars. Thus, even though in theory the current index may work, reality has shown that it can't.
2) revert to a car-based index similar to scca or nasa to PAX cars. However, I think the SCCA model is also very flawed as the ratings are based on the most prepared cars with national drivers. Thus to be competitive in a car class including a "stock" class the car must be taken to the maximum level of modification allowed by the rules (which is what every national level driver attempts to achieve (i.e., race shocks, R compound tires, bars, alignment, engine tuning, even car selection within class)). This rewards expense and is unrealistic for people with street cars (i.e., real street tires) as there are only a couple of street tire classes-- which also are not reflective of a street car, as they too require "race" tires in the form of Falkin Azenis or the like to be even remotely competitive. These indexes are also based on national level courses, which do not reflect low speed, tight and small lots such as Frederick where small cars have a big advantage.
3) Form a new system that take's into account CDC's unique driver base and lot characteristics. As most people stick with the same car, a personal index system can work, but needs club member feedback on how to fix it. Feedback welcome on suggestions. I have heard rumblings about the index all year. Now is a good time to fix it for next year.
Disgruntled Racer. :roll:
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by ProDarwin »

I am also very displeased with the current index system. My thoughts:

-- The index system punishes you for consistency, which is something all racers should be striving to achieve.

-- The index system kills competition on a large scale, and breaks it down into small groups on an individual event basis. And I know I hear "CDC is a laid back not so competitive atmosphere blah blah blah". Well, in my opinion, those who are not interested in competition could care less if the index system is changed, so why not change it for those of us who are? The way I "compare" my times right now is to look at raw times and compare them to similarly prepped cars. But this can only be done at the end of each event, as the yearly totals include the index which horribly skews results.

-- As was already noted, the index system indexes the driver, not the car. The idea of a competition is to see who is the better driver, correct? That would suggest handicaps based on the car, not previous performance.

Possible solutions:

-- Drop the index all together. Just publish raw times.

-- SCCA stock class based index, as suggested in this thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1354240
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by BugBomb »

I generally agree with you, and I have discussed this with Ed Chan as many others have. It's good that we can now voice our opinions here where the information will be even more accessible to the club.

Personally, I would rather have a PAX-like system so we can compare drivers more directly. We have been asking Ed Chan to incorporate PAX results in with the regular ones. His argument against that was that no one enters their PAX. We may be able to fix this by making it easier for people to determine their class from the registration form. It would take even more convincing to get points awarded for PAX results.

It's great that they offer rewards at the end of the year, but I don't really think it's necessary. I feel that when you put some sort of monetary value on the prizes then people start to take it a little too seriously. Points championship or not, my main reason for running at CDC will always be to have fun. If slowing down once in a while gets me some free auto-x passes, i'm cool with that, but it's not what I am here for. I wouldn't mind being able to compare PAX times with everyone, though, and it looks like that could soon be a reality.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by kyle.bowker »

I'm happy that people are finally starting to use this forum to talk about our events. The index system is hotly debated and many of you have expressed your opinion and frustration over at the NASIOC Subaru forum discussion "CDC AutoX Scoring Sytem POLL". Everybody has their opinion, the most passionate ones will be most vocal, there will be a silent majority, and the club has to carefully balance it's philosophy and desires with those of its members. That doesn't mean we are unwilling to change. It just means that any change we do make will be carefully measured before implementation. There are practical limitations to what we can accomplish as part-time, amateur event organizers.

One of the biggest differences about our club is that we're not SCCA. In fact, we're like the antithesis to SCCA. Obviously, SCCA does many things right based on how many people want to race with them and they serve as our guiding light when it comes to safety related issues but our atmosphere and attitude is rather different. We want fun, low-stress, safe events that favor camaraderie and good spirit over cut-throat competition. We want the racing to be challenging but we also cater to noobies who are intimidated by SCCA events. We don't want to compete with SCCA on a commodity basis because we'll lose every single time. We've got to offer our members something different than SCCA.

All year long there has been an optional space on the registration form for users to enter their SCCA PAX. Not a single person has ever put it in. Not one. What does that tell me? Our members apparently don't want to be bothered with figuring out how their car might be classified and they don't care how they stack up against others who have entered a PAX. Instead, they just want to have fun and "run what they brung" in a low stress environment. I know there may be a sort of "chicken or the egg" situation since entering PAX is optional and this year had no influence on points championship but it is telling.

I've thought a lot about the pros and cons of a car-based SCCA PAX handicap system. However, many of the issues are neither pro nor con, just a matter of preference.

Pros (Cons?):
  • Anybody can win in any car, whether they drive a Ferrari or Geo Metro
  • You don't need to buy R-comps to win
Cons (Or are these pros?):
  • Anybody can win in any car, whether they drive a Ferrari or a Geo Metro. Shouldn't auto-x reward whoever is fastest around the course? The fastest auto-x cars tend to be "light" weight, have sticky tires, 200+ hp, and are driven by genuinely fast drivers.
  • You don't need to buy R-comps to win. What incentive do competitors have to run race tires if the PAX equalizes every car? Shouldn't competitors be rewarded for spending money on their car in an attempt to make it go faster? Why doesn't everybody just race stock Honda Accords in a spec series?
  • People must figure out their car classification and enter a PAX. This means there will be scrutineering by other competitors who are looking for compliance (aka cheaters) and this changes the whole dynamic of the club to be more SCCA like and less friendly. This also means the organizers must arbitrate any protests. And believe me, there will be complainers. "He swapped to race tires after tech inspection! She swapped cars for the last run and borrowed a Cobra that has a different PAX!" Pete G has agreed to arbitrate protests but he isn't at every event and there is no clear, established procedure for appeals, etc. I don't believe organizers should be responsible for determining classification for you and I don't think they should assign someone a different PAX arbitrarily.
  • Reduced car sharing/swapping. Right now there is no consequence if a driver swaps cars due to mechanical breakdown or invitation to drive another participant's car for a few runs in the afternoon. If we institute a PAX you must stay with that one car for the entire day as tracking changes for 60+ competitors is big burden for organizers. Speaking of burden, the current results calculation costs Ed Chan a minimum of 3 hours and this is after much practice (it used to take him all day long!) A more complex PAX index that changes from event to event as drivers switch cars might compound the difficulty of compiling the results.
  • All this leads to more rules and more complexity. Inevitably, someone will feel that the rules puts THEM at a disadvantage and that politics are at play. Do more rules and more complexity result in a more fun auto-x event?
I think what we must focus on is keeping our events FUN. Does that mean making things more "fair"? Or does that mean getting rid of the index system completely? Should we reward consistent driving rather than "most improved" driving?
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by ProDarwin »

kyle.bowker wrote:Anybody can win in any car, whether they drive a Ferrari or a Geo Metro. Shouldn't auto-x reward whoever is fastest around the course? The fastest auto-x cars tend to be "light" weight, have sticky tires, 200+ hp, and are driven by genuinely fast drivers.
Yes, autox should reward who is fastest. Hence a lot of the complaining. I could care less that really fast cars with good drivers behind the wheel beat me. What's frustrating is losing to someone who I beat in raw time, but they KILL me in points because they did poorly during the last event (Again, rewarding inconsistency).
kyle.bowker wrote:You don't need to buy R-comps to win. What incentive do competitors have to run race tires if the PAX equalizes every car? Shouldn't competitors be rewarded for spending money on their car in an attempt to make it go faster? Why doesn't everybody just race stock Honda Accords in a spec series?
I believe CDC should be a competition of skill, not money. SCCA is partially a competition of money. Cars are prepped to the limit of the rules with top of the line parts. Classing allows for lower budget classes, but you can guess that whoever has the most money also has the best prepped car. If you were to replace the current index with PAX and still publish raw times, then the fastest guy is still the fastest guy, but that gives others hope of winning PAX one day.
kyle.bowker wrote:People must figure out their car classification and enter a PAX. This means there will be scrutineering by other competitors who are looking for compliance (aka cheaters) and this changes the whole dynamic of the club to be more SCCA like and less friendly. This also means the organizers must arbitrate any protests. And believe me, there will be complainers. "He swapped to race tires after tech inspection! She swapped cars for the last run and borrowed a Cobra that has a different PAX!" Pete G has agreed to arbitrate protests but he isn't at every event and there is no clear, established procedure for appeals, etc. I don't believe organizers should be responsible for determining classification for you and I don't think they should assign someone a different PAX arbitrarily.
I agree that organizers shouldn't be responsible. Leave it up to the participants to protest, if necessary. Chances are it will not be necessary.
kyle.bowker wrote:Reduced car sharing/swapping. Right now there is no consequence if a driver swaps cars due to mechanical breakdown or invitation to drive another participant's car for a few runs in the afternoon. If we institute a PAX you must stay with that one car for the entire day as tracking changes for 60+ competitors is big burden for organizers. Speaking of burden, the current results calculation costs Ed Chan a minimum of 3 hours and this is after much practice (it used to take him all day long!) A more complex PAX index that changes from event to event as drivers switch cars might compound the difficulty of compiling the results.
Easy solution: You get the pax multiplier the car you used for your fastest run. 100 times more accurate that an index which allows you to run a busted Saturn at one event and a Cobra at the next.
I understand Ed spends a lot of time calculating results (thanks Ed!), however removal of the index system and replacement of the PAX system would simplify result calculations, as each events results can be calculated individually and then added together. No rolling average.
kyle.bowker wrote:All this leads to more rules and more complexity. Inevitably, someone will feel that the rules puts THEM at a disadvantage and that politics are at play. Do more rules and more complexity result in a more fun auto-x event?
A more effective set of rules will add fun for those competitive. For those that are not, a change of rules should have no effect.
kyle.bowker wrote:Should we reward consistent driving rather than "most improved" driving?
Yes, we should reward consistent fast driving, rather than "most improved".
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by kyle.bowker »

AUTOXR1 wrote:half of the total cumulative points are based on raw times (favoring fast cars)
I think the raw times reward fast drivers in fast cars. If the raw times only rewarded fast cars the Cobras would always win and every S2000 owner would tie with Pete G and every Subaru STi owner would finish somewhere between the Moran Bros. and Bouchon.
AUTOXR1 wrote:Thus, if a club that rewards driver's with end of the year results and monetary reward is to be fair (or set up to be manipulation free), it needs some repair.
I understand the opportunity to earn a free season pass has caused several competitors to take the events VERY seriously.
AUTOXR1 wrote:Some suggestions. 1) if you want to keep the index "personal" don't have the index based on only the last few races. Instead have it be a permanent index that is cumulative. Alternatively, you can have the index ignore events that are well outside of a target range (allowing a discount or complete disregard for unusually slow times that would account for running someone else's much slower car for an event, sandbagging, or even hitting cones on each run).
Clearly Mike was sandbagging. I think one way to avoid this is to average the index over more events (5 or more) to reduce the benefit of sandbagging. The index doesn't ever get reset. However, dropping up to as many as 4 events helps alleviate the stress of having to attend every event. Since we run 12+ auto-x events each season it is exceptionally difficult to attend each one.
AUTOXR1 wrote:Another variation would be to not have the index drop. This assumes that one's skillset increases over time up until a maximum level of proficiency. Driver's skill do not go up and down over time. They are a near constant, with lesser experienced drivers having a steeper learning curve. Accordingly, the indexes should not fluctuate dramatically from week to week like they do.
I think this is a very astute observation. Novices make great leaps and then plateau, each one hundredth of a second getting ever more difficult to achieve. Driving badly should not reward you with a better index.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by motomoron »

I'm a comparative noob, approaching the end of my first season with CDC, though I've made every event and have tried to improve consistantly. My car (e36 M3) is absolutely bone stock but for a set of Toyo RA1s on non-staggered OEM wheels which help with grip, but also help with not using up my Michelin PS2 street rubber.

I've watched my index rise steadily all season as I also risen in the overall points. Though at some rounds I may have given the impression of sandbagging, I've actually been doing my best. At the Manassas round before last I was scored incorrectly at the same time as the *fast* e36 M3 that was there and due to my lower index, won the day. I eventually convinced Ed on my actual (about 3 second) slower time and had myself relegated to my rightful 31st place. The big downside is that my index was now artificially increased from about 1.01 to 1.1 something. This really stung when I did well at Bowie and would have finished much better in the points had my index been correct.

I've raced bicycles, motorcycles, cars, karts and RC cars, generally fairly poorly but with passion and dedication. I've competed in improvement-based index type series before as well, and my experience has shown that it works well to engage the new competitor, but ultimately when prizes are available and serious competitors emerge, they're never completely happy with whatever system is in place.

The only truly level racing I've ever done was WERA superbike classes. The rules dictate that in a given class bikes of certain displacements and configurations are allowed, and aside from requiring that the engine cases and frame be from the approved bike, everything else is open. There's no prize money, and the production classes pay better contingincy money, so unless you're just obsessed with chasing your white whale, it generally tends to reward innovation, good preparation, and good riding over simply throwing money at the problem.

If I start next season driving my Sprite rather than M3, but with my 1.1 something index carried over, I'm screwed 'til it "adjusts" down. Eh. I'm just having fun anyway...
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by TubeDriver »

An earlier post mentioned my idea for an Index based on the SCCA stock class so I thought I would mention it in this thread.

I think the fundamental question is what makes more sense: 1) trying to level/handicap cars so that drivers can compare themselves or 2) leveling drivers (CDC system)?

As I understand it, the concept of leveling cars so that drivers are competing on a level playing field makes sense. This concept also seems to go hand in hand with the CDC mindset which is to have fun and also for drivers to not be eliminated from doing well just because they drive a base model Mini and not a Z06 Corvette.

The current system is useless. We can have polite conversation all day long arguing about the theoretical merits of the current CDC system but let’s actually look at concrete examples of what the current CDC PAX results look like. At the last event, we have a relatively inexperienced driver scoring a 44.17 in a S2000. I drove a stock S2000 and got a 41.60. Yet when the CDC PAX is calculated, my index time is 45.63 and the other person’s index score is a 43.54. In other words, in identical cars I beat someone’s raw times by 2.57 seconds yet the Index times have me losing by over 2 seconds! The “winner” might rightfully ask what does it mean to win? I might reasonably ask what does it take to get in the top 10 of CDC PAX since an FTD in a stock car does not insure that.

Indexing cars gets results that are harder to argue with and seem to have some validity. Clearly, the SCCA system has problems, the way in which it handles R-comps and also the way it handles modifications are clearly not perfect but the stock classification system works fairly well.

For those of you not familiar with the SCCA PAX system, the SCCA looks at the actual results of over 200 events every year. Stock cars are placed in classes depending on how well they do. The stock classes range form SS to HS (fastest to slowest). So SS class cars are Z06 Corvette, Lotus Exige, Porsche Turbo and GT3. The next class is AS and is primarily made up of S2000, Boxster S, C4 Corvettes. This continues all the way down to HS cars (Chevy Baretta, Fiat 124 Sedan, Scion TC etc.) Virtually ALL car models are covered and fall into one of the stock classes, look it up and I bet you can find your car listed.

The idea behind that SCCA PAX is to answer the question: who is a faster driver and how to compare times when one driver shows up in a Z06 Corvette and another driver shows up in a Scion TC? We know that if the two drivers are fairly close in terms of skill, the Z06 driver will get a faster raw time then the Scion TC driver. But since each class gets its own handicap, we can compare the two runs. The Z06 driver get a 60 second run and has a PAX index of .848 so the Index time for his run is 50.88. The driver in the Scion TC gets a 64 second raw time, her index is .789 so her Index time is 50.496. In this case, the Scion driver would be in 1st place and the Z06 driver is in 2nd place. The VAST performance difference between the two vehicles (Scion TC and Z06 Corvette) has been equalized and the better/faster driver gets recognized.

The issue that many people have with the SCCA index is how it handles r-comps and mods. I would suggest using the stock class Index as a starting point and then assigning some additional handicap for mods. Something simple might be to say that basic bolt ons (intake/exhaust/springs/shocks/swaybars/wheels/seats/steering wheels/mild internal engine mods like cams) puts you in a “modified” class which would be your stock class index + some additional mod index modifier. We could also make a “ultimate” class for cars with engine swaps/forced induction/engine management on forced induction cars which would put you into a “ultimate” class made up of your stock index + a “ultimate” modifier.

Lastly, we could average all the street tire raw times and all the r-comp raw times at the end of each event to get an r-comp Index modifier number. This number would handicap all cars that ran on r-comps. So my PAX modifier from the last event would be stock class (.838 since I have a S2000) + “modified class modifier (due to front swaybar and exhaust) + r-comp modifier = my index modifier for that event.

We could certainly handle mods and r-comps differently; there are a lot of ways to take into account these variables. Using the SCCA stock class as a base gives our index some basis in reality.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by BugBomb »

ProDarwin wrote:I believe CDC should be a competition of skill, not money. SCCA is partially a competition of money.
I believe CDC should be fun, and SCCA should be competition.

Kyle, I think you bring up some very good points there. We really are putting too much emphasis on competition. That's not what this club is about, and I don't think we want it to become an SCCA clone.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by TubeDriver »

Right now, CDC is ALL about how much money you can throw in the ring. All you need is HP and sticky tires.


The SCCA index is far more fair, someone in a low cost, lowered powered car can win overall. That can NEVER happen at CDC. Only fast cars can win at CDC.

CDC's index system is the most biased system I have ever heard of. Got a low powered car? You will NEVER win a CDC trophy. But you can take that same low powered car and to an event with the SCCA PAX system and win the championship if you drive well enough.

No offense Mike, but you and Jake saying that CDC should be "fun" and not "competitive" is not all that convincing. You guys are sandbagging at events in order to win, not to have fun. There is nothing wrong with you taking advantage of a poor system to win but lets be honest, a major part of the "fun" of any autoX is the competition. If it was just for the fun of driving, we could not record times at all. How fun would that be?

The most fair thing an index can do is take the variable of car type out of the equation; make it a contest between drivers NOT a competition between cars.

BugBomb wrote:
ProDarwin wrote:I believe CDC should be a competition of skill, not money. SCCA is partially a competition of money.
I believe CDC should be fun, and SCCA should be competition.

Kyle, I think you bring up some very good points there. We really are putting too much emphasis on competition. That's not what this club is about, and I don't think we want it to become an SCCA clone.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by ProDarwin »

TubeDriver wrote: a major part of the "fun" of any autoX is the competition. If it was just for the fun of driving, we could not record times at all. How fun would that be?
Exactly!
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by kyle.bowker »

I am racing against the clock and myself, no one else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at SCCA there is no one champion, there are only class champions. Is the index is just for giggles then?
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by KanosWRX »

I am in the same boat as most people who agree that the current system is flawed. Although I think of CDC as being a "fun" event, I also enjoy some level of competition and like to see how I would compare to faster and more powerful cars. I think thats where a new index/pax system is needed. After reading through all of these posts and the ones that were on MAIC, I like some others here feel using the Stock SCCA Pax index is a very good place to start. Their are only several choices to choose from and it is fairly easy to look up what your car would be in (we could even post a chart on the site to make it easier). From their having index's for cars with some mods and lots of mods then r-comps seems like the easiest and way to go. We all could help monitor that no one is trying to cheat the system, we all know who is similar to us in times and most of us know what they have done to their car. I don't think this will be an issue though as we are mostly a good group of people and trustworthy. I just hope we will see some changes in the way things are done next year.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by BugBomb »

TubeDriver wrote:No offense Mike, but you and Jake saying that CDC should be "fun" and not "competitive" is not all that convincing. You guys are sandbagging at events in order to win, not to have fun. There is nothing wrong with you taking advantage of a poor system to win but lets be honest, a major part of the "fun" of any autoX is the competition. If it was just for the fun of driving, we could not record times at all. How fun would that be?
The most fun I have ever had at an auto-x was last Sunday's test&tune. No championship BS, and no recorded times. I thought it was a blast.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by TubeDriver »

kyle,
You are 100% mistaken. The SCCA index has class champions but also Overall Champions. That is the entire point of the SCCA Index, you can compare ALL drivers regardless of how fast or slow the cars they drive are.

Examine the SCCA results. They all have class ranks and then overall rank with all classes combined. At FedEx, the usual overall winner is Sam Strano driving a stock Camaro. Sam is an incredibly fast driver who regularly wins the National Championship in a stock Camaro (he just recently changed to a stock Mustang GT). He has wickedly fast raw times (for his stock Camaro) but he also beats out many faster cars (shifter carts, Z06s, Lotus Exiges, wildly modded cars of all classes) in the index scores for the overall championship.


That is the whole point behind indexing CARS not drivers. You can compare yourself to any other driver regardless of car.

Ask yourself, what exactly does "racing against the clock" mean? I am personally 1) always trying to do the best I can and 2) compete against other folks. There is nothing inherently wrong with competition in sports events. Wanting to win is not bad in track and field or in autoX. Francois and I competed in AS at SCCA for the 2006 season and it did not make us enemies, in fact it just made it clear how competitive we both are with either one of use able to win on any given day. It breeds respect for others driving skills.

kyle, here is another real world example of the current CDC Index in action:

This weekend I locked up 1st place overall at Mercedes (which uses SCCA Index) for the season. A CDC club member who also competes at the Mercedes events (and will remain nameless to protect the innocent) was overheard saying that "money talks" and "I will throw more money" in order to beat Pete someday. My wife made a comment that "perhaps driver skill" also has something to do with my ranking. That is what this driver has learned from the CDC index: in order to win a championship, he needs to get 450hp at the wheel (instead of 350hp) and just throw money at the problem. A Vehicle based index (like SCCA PAX) teaches that car is irrelevant, skill is what counts.


kyle.bowker wrote:I am racing against the clock and myself, no one else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at SCCA there is no one champion, there are only class champions. Is the index is just for giggles then?
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by moxnix »

kyle.bowker wrote:I am racing against the clock and myself, no one else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at SCCA there is no one champion, there are only class champions. Is the index is just for giggles then?
Locally the DC Region uses PAX to score the Ladies class. The full PAX results are simply provided as a gauge for people to measure them self against it is not used for any other classes/awards. Other regions use PAX for things like street tire classes, overall drivers championship, or Pro classes. Many non SCCA clubs use it to have something besides raw times to score other make cars with (Mostly marque clubs who have their own classing for their marque)
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by Gonz »

If we do change to a classing system, I vote for we keep it SIMPLE .

SCCA is NOT simple as it has Super Stock, A stock, B stock, C stock, D stock, E stock, F stock, G stock, H stock.

That's borderline too many classes to deal with.

Then on top of that, most of these classes have a further sub class of A Street Prepared, B Street Prepared, and so on. Then each of those has a further class fo A Prepared, B Prepared, etc. THen if that's STILL not enough there is A Modified, B Modified, and so ont. Still aren't sick of the SCCA ?? Well, they've got more for you STS, then STX, then STS2, then Street Mod, STU......... ad nauseum.

NOw you know why none of the CDC guys put down a PAX index. They don't want to get caught up in the tedious details of SCCA classing system.

So if we do a new classing system, I would like to do it similar to how BMW club does. You simply break cars down into a few classes, then distinguish between R comps & Street tires, or have R comps bump you UP one class.

There is no direct competiton between one class and another. There are no percentage points, fractions, indices, mulitpliers, rolling averages, or anyting like that. You simply list the raw results then you list them broken down by group. So the guy who gets around the course first is the winner, but each class also has some competition within itself to keep the "have nots" interested in competing with each other. So we might have an overall winner in an S2000 or Cobra, but then we'd have 10 guys in Miatas, MR2, sprites, etc all competing against each other for bragging right in that group.

We don't need to split hairs like SCCA does. Who cares if your rims are 9 inches wide or 9.5 inches wide ?? What does it matter if your hood scoop is 1" or 3" tall. Save those kind of nit picking for the SCCA events.

We could just make a few simple classes such as

Unlimited ( anything with a bolt on turbo, supercharger, engine swap or 7 liter motor, specifically the 427 Cobras, Suxass machine, White Civic)

Sports Car I ( Cobras, S2000, TR6, Porsches, Corvette, EVO and STi, M3,etc)
Sports Car II ( Miatas, MR2s, 4 cylinder British cars, CRX, INtegras, RSX, RX8 etc)
Sports Sedan I ( WRX, Audis, non-M BMWs, etc)
Sports Sedn II ( Mustangs, Camaro, diesel Mercedes, country squire wagon etc ;) )

I'm just throwing these out as an example. But then you'd have your REAL winner, the fastest cars, and a competition for FUN, amongst drivers in similar cars without worrying about if one Miata driver has a brake upgrade and the other doesn't :roll: like the SCCA does.

Of course it's not going to be FAIR completely, but it will add some interest to those of us ( WRX drivers) who have absolutely no chanc of competing with the STis, EVOs, S2000s, Cobras out there.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by moxnix »

I think where the index/PAX people are having an issue is what is the point of an index system?

To me (and most people complaining I think) it is to equalize cars so that the best drivers win. They may or may not have the fastest raw times or the fastest cars.

To Ed/CDC current index it is to show who "improved" the most over the last 3 events.

The CDC system (to me) seems to try to equalize everything (car, driver, phase of moon, remembering to put on fresh underwear in case you have an accident on course, Etc) the problem is that it puts equal emphasis on all the different parts so making a large change in the car could temporarily jump you in index even if you are not a better driver than you were before. Or if you bring out the GF's moms forester it could bump you way down in index no matter how well you drive it.

I could "improve" in index by swapping back to the miata after running the forester or by running "R" compound tires on my car. To me these kind of improvements should be reflected in the raw time improvement that I see so I do not need them to be reflected again in index. The current CDC scoring system doubly rewards drivers who spend a lot of money making "improvments" on their car and just leads to an arms race for FTD since that is the only real "win" at CDC.

I do not see a reason to run "R" Compounds at CDC events because while they would artificially inflate my index for a few events as soon as it renormalizes I would be back in the same spot in regards to index and would just be a little higher in raw. None of my cars have a chance at a raw win setup for SCCA classes like they are so why waste the tires?

With the current index "winning" is subject to sandbagging and since the overall points winners for the year are half based on the indexed scores and you can drop 4 events sandbagging is the smart way to score some easy points if you are just going for the year end win.

I think the index would better reflect the real results that you want to see if it was informational only and not used for season points scoring. It still would not reflect what I want to see but it would an improvement
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by TubeDriver »

Gonz,
I agree in general with you. The problem is that a super simple classe system open up all sorts of problems like "Porsches" which range from 120hp 912s to 500Hp GT2s. Does it really make sense to classify all Porsches in one group? That makes about as much sense as classing all Subaru's (from Subaru Brats and early 1990s non-turbo Legacy wagons to current STI) in the same group.

My system only has the stock classes (SS to HS). Period. No prepared classes, no street prepared, etc.

I will repeat, we will only use the 9 stock classes (SS to HS) to get a baseline for every car that runs (there are probably thousands listed in the SCCA manual) but we will fit every car into one of nine classes.

Then each stock class Index gets a modifier based on level of mod (if any) and a modifier for r-comps. My suggestion was to use two levels of modification 1) bolt-ons and 2) ultimate (engine swaps, forced induction, and engine managment for forced induction cars (which can easily add 20-50hp).


How simple is this?


let's looks at a few concrete examples.


My S2000 currently has a front swaybar and a catback exhaust. My index would be AS (.838) + bolt-on mod addition (.xxx) and also a r-comp modifier (.xxx). My total index is a single score based on the variables above.

Your mustang would start with a FS Index (.809). you would add a bolt-on mod addition (.xxx) due to your springs/wheels/camber plates/exhaust/pulleys etc and a r-comp addition at .xxx (if you decide to run on r-comps).

My Miata would start with CS Index (.822) and then get a bolt-on Index addition (.xxx) due to coilovers/wheels/exhaust and a r-comp addition (.xxx)


Most people would fall in stock or bolt-on mods classes. Basically, a stock car means just that, a completely stock car (I would probably not require OEM tires, any NON r-comp tire is fine as long as it is on OEM size, offset wheels). Basically, any mod and you get a bolt-on modifier
(yes, that means cars with a tons of bolt-ons will gain some advantage over cars with only an exhaust). Any car with an r-comp (wear rating less than 140) will get r-comp modifier.

The SCCA stock classes have some validity based on the standing at hundreds of events each year. Is it perfect, no but probably a lot more valdid then just breaking cars in 3 groups and having at it.



I agree with you 100% that it must be reasonably simple.


I disagree that "there is no direct competiton between one class and another. There are no percentage points, fractions, indices, mulitpliers, rolling averages, or anything like that. You simply list the raw results then you list them broken down by group", because really what is the point? If we can compare cars on some basic level lets just report raw times and forget index scoring completely. The only valid reason to have Index scores is to compare drivers by removing car capabilities from the equation. That is the sole reason for Indexing cars, anything else just adds complexity with no benefits.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by mla163 »

There are a lot of comments here that make a lot of sense. But we need to keep this simple.

I want to mention that Engine Management is the first mod on a lot of WRXs. Bumping an otherwise stock WRX into a "SuperModified" class would seem unfair. So the classing system may not be as easy or fair as it seems.

No matter what happens this season with the index sytem, let's eliminate sandbagging. It's not a huge change and I don't think that anyone can disagree.

Also, if we are devising a new system, do we want to be competing in one big group with modifiers (like the current system), or in separate classes (like SCCA)?

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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by ProDarwin »

mla163 wrote:Also, if we are devising a new system, do we want to be competing in one big group with modifiers (like the current system), or in separate classes (like SCCA)?
One big group with modifiers seems good to me. CDC doesn't have the cars to fill separate classes.

I'm siding with TubeDriver right now. Gonz's system works well, but the SCCA PAX is a very well tested system, so why not steal it (for the stock base @ least). If I'm correct, TubeDriver is suggesting that we still compete as one big group with modifiers as opposed to individual classes. That eliminates the problem of "Too many classes to deal with". Also remember guys that its still possible to compete with raw times as well.

Either way, any of the proposed ideas seems like a step in the right direction: eliminating the current index (and along with it "sandbagging").
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by Gonz »

even with the SCCA's dozens of different PAX indices there are still glaring "overdogs" and "underdogs" out there. Certain classes are dominated by the same make, model, and model year of car over and over, even though dozens of cars may be eligible for that class.

Example, Ted's A STock Mercedes had no chance in AStock. Even Francois, another fast driver, drove it in SCCA and agreed it cannot possible run with the top dog Astock cars.

With the sCCA, there is quite often only one "right" car for that class, and a bunch of also rans. SEcondly, as was written earlier, the SCCA index are set up based on SCCA type courses. On our small lots big horsepower isn't as helpful as it is on a faster course.

So if the SCCA class system is known to be biased towards certain cars, and also poorly thought out ( 06 WRX and 06 STi both in STU ??? ha-ha-ha ) why not just make our own groups based on our experience with results we've seen over the past several years on our little courses ?

I think if we get into which car has "no mods" which car has " Some mods" and which car has "mondo mods" then we've already gone too far. The guy with nothing but a cold air intake is going to say he is " Stock, " and the guy with +1 wheels and nothing else is going to say he is " stock" etc.

I agree it would be nice to have a differentiation between R comps and street tires. However, even that is not going to be perfect as the guy on all season Uniroyals is going to be head to head with the guy on on Azenis. So it's false to believe the SCCA somehow determines who is the 'best driver' by using pax. It's just another frame of reference.

Since I wanted to avoid anything that smells of the SCCA that's why I would be OK with we just make our own classes and go with that.

For me the big difference is that, unlike many (some? most) of you, I see no reason to compare cars across two different classes. I just want to have different classes and a ranking within each, with one overall winner. AKA the FTD.

Like in real racing. You don't see the LMP1 cars get a index over the LMP2 cars, or the GT2 cars over the GT3 cars or the Group N cars over the WRC cars, they simply get results in their specific classes as well as overall results.

I' m glad this is being discussed.
I' m stil waiting for the "silent majority" to speak up. Kyle so far is the one voice in favor of the current system. I believe Ed Chan also likes it, but I wouldn't call it a "majority" just yet ;)
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by kyle.bowker »

I don't want to come across as being an over zealous supporter of the current CDC index. Like all systems it has its shortcomings. I just think we must careful consider any proposed changes to make sure they're feasible and match up with the guiding philosophies of our club. This is why we're having this debate now. We've got several months to consider what action to take, if any.

Let's keep the ideas coming. A friend of mine used to run with the Martin Sports Car Club in Florida. They're one of the biggest SCCA-independent auto-x clubs in the country. To see how they run events and classify cars click here.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by gimp »

My girlfriend and I ran our first CDC event this weekend in her BONE STOCK Honda Fit. The car is just as it came off the showroom floor. The ONLY thing changed was the tire pressure.

Wanna take a guess as to where we both listed? I wasn't surprised to see her at the bottom, as this was only her second event, but she's getting better every time. I was surprised to see that while I was 7 seconds faster than her, I was only a few places up in the overall ranking, and a lot of this has to do with the lack of a PAX index.

Autocross IS NOT about who gets around the course the fastest. That just makes it about $$$. I've always competed in low-cost cars, and have had tons of fun doing so. My first autocross car was a Hyundai Accent (which had some damn good showings in all its inceptions), and I'm currently running a 318ti in STS.

Under the current system, I could care less about showing up in my car and using up my expensive street tires. I'd rather beat on the Fit, since I would stand no chance in raw time against the bigger HP cars (mine has 140 crank).

A PAX system is a GOOD thing. It encourages those who can't afford the fastest car, and shows who the better driver is.

I think a system based in the SCCA stock PAX index is a great idea. The only twist I would make is to come up with a point system for mods and upwards classing, similar to the NASA setup.

A portion from the NASA rulebook, located here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf
Starting on page 19

6.4 Up-Classing System
6.4.1 Modifications and Point Assessments:
If your car accrues 20 or more points you will be bumped up in Class. There is no limit - a car
with a high level of modifications might move up several Classes.
20 thru 39 points - Up ONE Class
40 thru 59 points - Up TWO Classes
60 thru 79 points - Up THREE Classes
80 thru 99 points - Up FOUR Classes
100 thru 119 points - Up FIVE Classes
120 thru 139 points - Up SIX Classes
140 thru 159 points - Up SEVEN Classes
160 thru 179 points - Up EIGHT Classes
One (1) * on a base class assignment denotes a 7 point initial assessment, and two (2) **
denotes a 14 point initial assessment that is added to the total number of modification
points to determine the final competition class.
TIRES:
1) DOT-approved R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 40 or less (ex. Hoosier
R6, Kumho Ecsta V710, etc.—note: G.A.C. Hoosiers OK) +10
2) DOT-approved R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 50 to 90 (ex. Kumho
Victoracer, Hankook Z211, etc) +7
3) DOT-approved R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 100 or greater (ex.
Toyo RA-1, Nitto NT01, etc) +5
4) Non-DOT-approved racing slicks +30
5) The following tire sizes will be used as the base tire size for each Base Class for all
vehicles regardless of their OEM tire size(s). All vehicles in a given base class may use
this tire size (or smaller) without a points assessment:
TTA: 295 mm, TTB: 265mm, TTC: 255mm, TTD: 245mm, TTE: 235mm,
TTF: 215mm, TTG: 195mm, TTH: 175mm
Increased tire width beyond that listed above (using the largest increase of front or rear if
using split sizes) will be assessed as follows:
Equal to or greater than: 10mm +1, 20mm +4, 30mm +7, 40mm +10, 50mm +13, 60mm +16,
70mm +19, 80mm +22, 90mm +25, 100mm +28, 110mm +31, 120mm +34, etc.
Tire width is determined by the number printed on the tire sidewall by the manufacturer.
If a tire does not have a manufacturer’s printed number on the sidewall, then actual tread
width measurement will be used. Drivers choosing to use tires narrower than the size
listed for their base class may get credited back points by reversing the assessments listed
above using the smaller decrease of front or rear for cars using split sizes (i.e. -1 for 10mm
smaller, -4 for 20mm smaller, -7 for 30mm smaller, etc.) UTQG treadwear ratings are as of
the date of these rules. Any new tire or tire with a changed UTQG treadwear rating must be
evaluated by the National TT Director before the rating will be legal for use in NASA TT
classing.


This will keep it from being as nit-picky as the SCCA, but better equalize cars. For example, boost alterations can make a difference in cars that are factory supercharged, so mechanical or electronic boost adjustments should carry a significant point value to help place it.

Leave the policing to the members.

Kate was at the bottom of the index, and if she didn't know any better, she may not want to return to an event after showing up at the bottom out of everyone there. Separating into a class where there wouldn't be as many cars, or providing a PAX index that would show rewards based on her driving ability would go a long way to making her feel better about how she did, and encourage her to return (for the record, she will continue to race - just making a point). In addtion, when the guy next to her in the grid tells her it's his first time, hops in his Corvette, drives like crap but posts a better raw time, she'll know who the better driver is, and not who has the better bankroll.

PS - Kate would like to apologize to those working the course during her morning heat. Really, the reason she was killing cones was my fault, but I'll let her take the credit. We did manage to get things together for the afternoon.

Damn... that was a hell of a first post.
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Re: INDEX SYSTEM

Post by TubeDriver »

I agree 100%. I am glad you and your girlfriend had a good time at our event.

To answer a few other points raised:


1) As mentioned, if we used the SCCA stock based idea we could have one big group and compare everyone together as well as break down by individual class if desired. It works both ways.

2) Gonz, race car analogies really do not hold to autoX that well. There may be a few different groups in a race but each class has to strictly adhere to a rulebook, often several hundred pages long. Cars have their engine routinely torn down after races to insure compliance etc. It is a whole different game.

3) The real reason I choose the base SCCA stock class as the basis for our system is that depsite the limitations and mistakes, it is by far the most comprehensive system in existence. You want some basic validity measures? How about this: at the National events where ALL the cars are preped to the max and EVERY class has world class drivers, theaverage raw times for SS cars beat the average raw times for AS cars which beat the average raw times for BS cars which in turn beat the average raw times for CS car and so. In other words, on average, the stock classes used by SCCA do make sense. Sure there are favorites in each class, but take for examaple the current hot BS car which is the RX-8. It will still get spanked by fast AS cars like the S2000 or Boxster S.


The bottom line is that there is no way we can effectively take into account how vehicles perform to make a better index than the SCCA stock classes. We can't even agree on a method much less implement it. Each year the SCCA SOLO board looks at the results of hundreds of events to detrmine if a single car has some advantage. When a car is found to dominate it's class, it is bumped (like when the S2000 was moved from BS up to AS in 2004). The SCCA stock class index (faults and mistakes and all) is still way better than us lumping all cars into 3 groups and pretending they are somehow evenly matched.




gimp wrote:
A PAX system is a GOOD thing. It encourages those who can't afford the fastest car, and shows who the better driver is.

I
Damn... that was a hell of a first post.
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