INDEX SYSTEM

[TubeDriver]

I don't know. Perhaps we should make it dependent on the driver to notify timing and provide an Index? it really is not our job as organizers to figure out what you are driving and what your index is right?

We would need a manual override as you mentioned earlier and it would be more work for the person doing the scoring. This does not happen all that often but enough that we would need a relatively simple way to work that out.

With our current system I would just note on the timing sheet that driver X is now in XXX type of car and it would be up to the driver to provide Index. If they did not provide Index, only raw score would be reported.

I don't won't to discourage people experimenting with different vehicles, that is one of the fun things about CDC so my vote would be for option #2 (but it would be up the the driver to make sure that timing knows the Index for each car he is running and which runs where which).

Deciding which option to choose is the easy part. How do you implement it? How do you tell the computer system that driver # 777 has just switched cars and has a new index? What is that new index?

[kyle.bowker]

With our current system I would just note on the timing sheet that driver X is now in XXX type of car and it would be up to the driver to provide Index. If they did not provide Index, only raw score would be reported

With the hammer and chisel method we use now all we have to do is scratch out one car and write in another. However, one of our goals is to move away from the paper "backup" time sheets being the primary score keeping apparatus and rely primarily on the computer.

[mla163]

Perhaps we should make it dependent on the driver to notify timing and provide an Index? it really is not our job as organizers to figure out what you are driving and what your index is right?

We're getting warmer.

Let's say we go with a simplified PAX method. All PAX modifiers are less than 1.0. A driver can opt to use a modifier (which most competitive people will do) 0.8xx or so. If the modifier is not known (for noobs, say) then their modifier will be 1.0. A 1.0 modifier will never win FTD, so it benefits the driver to do this themselves. The organizers do nothing. It is up to the driver to calculate it. It is up to competitors to police themselves (just like how the SCCA does it). Correct me if I'm wrong, but at an SCCA tech inspection, they don't class your car, they just check for safety.

[Identity Crisis]

My vote would be for the SCCA PAX Index System with no extra modifiers,
the modifiers (rules) already exist if you use the SCCA PAX system anyway.

I really dont see what is so bad about their PAX system, yes certain cars can be considered
the overdog for a given class and people say r-comps shouldnt be in stock etc. etc.

But...
The r-comps are figured into the PAX formula anyway, so why mess with that.
Mods are also taken into consideration and the PAX Indexes reflect those as well.

Why train someone new to the sport into one way of Indexing and classing only to have
them find out later by going to an SCCA event that things are done completly different.
Plus people who run SCCA and want to run CDC are already trained:) And their cars are
classified and prepped already.

Why make anyone PROVIDE their index, just give them a spot on the registration page
for their SCCA class. I would think this would be easier on the organizers as well, only
having to configure the the PAX Database once, and input a class, boom, done.
This looks like a good piece of software to use as well:
http://www.axwaresystems.com/axwreports.htm

Its pretty easy for someone to figure out what class to run in too, as all the data is freely
available on the web. This is a good place to start: http://www.autocross.com/
And, if they still aren't sure then I'm positive people on this board or during events at tech and
registration can help them figure it out.

If the SCCA system was in place and classes were being used, why attempt to further divide the classes
into street tires vs r-comps vs whatever else. It wouldnt be fair to assign the SAME Index
to all r-compound shod vehicles anyway, much less try to figure out the mods. Plus like I stated earlier,
its already been done with the SCCA pax.

Minor SCCA rules nitpicking is not really a problem on a local level anyway, people run in classes all
the time with insignificant violations. Only when someone really starts to dominate a class, or wants to
run national events do they become more scrutinized, and must prepare their can more in accordance to the rules.

Classes are usually self policing as people are aware of their fellow competitors.

When thinking about doing mods competitors can make smarter, and better choices (turbo or tires lol). Increasing horsepower puts the
vehicle into another (usually modified) class, doing an alignment, installing better shocks, and other minor suspension mods, as well as r-comps
are all "free" in stock classes.

If the classing system were in place we could have many more happy people on Monday morning by giving them a chance to win their respective classes.
As well as give the a chance to WIN OVERALL PAX!!!. Wouldnt that be fun!!!

The fast drivers in fast cars are still going to be near the top of a PAX list, but it gives someone in a
lower classed car to be at or near the top. Pax results from the 2007 Nationals are a good example:
http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/indexe ... ionals.pdf

The DC region SCCA never publishes results in RAW format, they post class results and overall PAX indexes:
http://www.wdcr-scca.org/SoloAutocross/ ... fault.aspx
Philly reigon too:
http://www.phillyscca.com/solo2/results ... 907FIN.HTM

Some other clubs break results into RAW, Class and PAX.
http://www.vmsc.org/xmb19-forum/viewthr ... 4&pid=4127
http://www.vmsc.org/xmb19-forum/viewthr ... 4&pid=4128
http://www.vmsc.org/xmb19-forum/viewthr ... 4&pid=4129

The question then becomes how you would want to determine a Champion or Champions,
would you apply points for the RAW and Indexed times (current system) or just to
the Indexed times. Or have individual class Champions and an overall Index Champion.

Whew, OK thats my rant TTFN.

[kyle.bowker]

I don't think we want R-comps to be a de facto requirement since >90% of CDC competitors run normal street tires. Street Touring classes are rather limited in which vehicle models are allowed. The rest of the street tire brigade would be forced into a Stock or Prepared class where they'd be seriously out gunned by everyone else who will be using R-comps. This is why many at CDC feel there needs to be differentiation between R-comps and street tires. The biggest difference between fast and slow cars at CDC is not horsepower or adjustable coilovers but rather R-comps vs. street tires. I don't think we want to fully adopt any SCCA PAX system because they've got way too many classes. I know you'd still be "racing" against others based on PAX but what fun is it when you're the only car in a given class?

And, if they still aren't sure then I'm positive people on this board or during events at tech and
registration can help them figure it out.

There will be virtually no help from organizers on site at the event. Participants will be on their own re: class. If any member wants to counsel someone else on what class they belong in they're welcome to do so. But we don't have the manpower to help them at the event. I've got way too many other things to worry about. They should have all their ducks in a row beforehand. If you're a walk on or just don't know what your PAX is you run in X class until you figure out where you belong. That doesn't sound very welcoming and friendly, does it?

Why train someone new to the sport into one way of Indexing and classing only to have
them find out later by going to an SCCA event that things are done completly different.

Life's a beach. If they desire to move up to SCCA they're obviously willing to accept their way of doing things. CDC is not SCCA and their way of doing things isn't necessarily the best way for us to do things. If I liked SCCA's way of doing things I wouldn't be messing around with CDC.

The question then becomes how you would want to determine a Champion or Champions,
would you apply points for the RAW and Indexed times (current system) or just to the Indexed times. Or have individual class Champions and an overall Index Champion.

Very good observation. How do we want to reward people? Should we reward them for good driving? Or fast driving? Should we offer a reward at all? What do other clubs offer their auto-x champions besides a congratulatory hand shake and a plaque to hang on the wall?

[moxnix]

Very good observation. How do we want to reward people? Should we reward them for good driving? Or fast driving? Should we offer a reward at all? What do other clubs offer their auto-x champions besides a congratulatory hand shake and a plaque to hang on the wall?

DC
Per event - Magnet with placing (1-3 in each class)
Year end - Jacket + Plaque/photo
AI
Per event - Magnet with placing
Year end - Plaque/photo
Philly
Per event - Mug/glass (top half of class IIRC)
Year end - Plaque IIRC + Jacket (if you pay for it)

I think you should make it two separate battles. One indexed and one raw. Let those that want to build their car and not worry about classing go for the raw title while others who prefer to stick with a set of rules work on improving themself in index. Can the same person win both? Sure but this at least gives those who are not building high powered high grip cars something to shoot for. I don't care what kind of rewards you give out or even if there are any.

[kyle.bowker]

I don't care what kind of rewards you give out or even if there are any.

So for you it's all about the glory? The satisfaction of winning? I've heard several times that if there wasn't a prize on the line (season pass) people wouldn't take it so seriously.

[Gonz]

Perhaps this is something we need to start on our own. I think we have two choices that could bring us closer to realizing this idea.

One, we can collect PAX indexes from members here, or from the club's registration and do the calcs ourselves for each event (obviously not everyone will participate, but those who care will).

now this is a novel idea. Or "thinking outside the box" if you like cliches Ultimately we don't NEED the club to do the PAX conversion at all. We already get the final scores from Ed in Excel format. We just need to know which car fits in which class, who was on R Comps, and Pete, what is your " modifier" for modded cars ??

If we have that info we can come up with our own "results" and post them on here for anyone who wants to see how they compare to others.

Gonz.

[moxnix]

I don't care what kind of rewards you give out or even if there are any.

So for you it's all about the glory? The satisfaction of winning? I've heard several times that if there wasn't a prize on the line (season pass) people wouldn't take it so seriously.

While it may be hard to imagine given how much I have been arguing against the current system I actually just autox for fun and never take anything seriously. I don't think I knew until recently that you actually gave out prizes. Actual winning and trophies take at least a forth or fifth place to me. Trophies sit in a box someplace and are just something you have to move later.

The way I see it you already have a good battle going for FTD at the current events and no matter if you have awards for it or not you will still have people fighting for FTD bragging rights. I think a real car based index would give people who are not in the FTD battle something to shoot for. I think there are very few people who know and care about how they do in the CDC index unless they are in it for season points.

Of course while I will argue on the internet all night long about this but no matter what happens I will still be out at events when I have the time.

[BugBomb]

Maybe someone (Pete?) can make a special thread on the forum where people can post their name (as it appears on the results) and their PAX. We could keep a full list on the first post and this would temporarily fill the void until we have logins for registration. Anyone could take the list of PAX modifiers and make their own PAX results for a recent event.

Kyle, are organizers allowed to edit posts indefinitely, or are they restricted to 5 minutes as well?

[gimp]

Just the new guy (to CDC) again...

I can honestly say that the lack of a PAX or better index classing is what is going to keep me from joining CDC.

I have a lower powered car setup on street tires (built for SCCA STS). With the current system, I cannot win, and that is not fun to me. CDC will be nothing but practice/seat time to me, which is not what I hope CDC wants. I'd love to be a more active participant and eventually member, but that won't happen for me if the current system stands.

In addition, you hope to attract new people into the sport. Newer drivers have under-prepared cars and are often on street tires. If they are always at the bottom of the results it can be a bit discouraging.

To the person who said that >90% of the CDC competitors are on street tires - That percentage seems really off compared to what I saw this past weekend.

I hope you folks get a better system in place. It will only benefit you.

Thanks!
Paul

http://www.teamziptie.com

[kyle.bowker]

Maybe someone (Pete?) can make a special thread on the forum where people can post their name (as it appears on the results) and their PAX.

If people type their PAX in when they register I can query the database and put the name (or alias) and PAX somewhere for you to play with.

Kyle, are organizers allowed to edit posts indefinitely, or are they restricted to 5 minutes as well?

All organizers are by default global forum moderators as well so they can modify posts indefinitely.

[TubeDriver]

Welcome to CDC! As you can see, CDC is a dynamic club that is seriously looking at ways to improve the competition and safety of our events. I appreciate the support you have shown for a revised PAX based system and hopfully we will be able to implement some form of this system for next season. I agree with your opinion that in the long run our current index system will cause us to lose members.

Stay tuned and continue to let us know your feelings on this subject.

Just the new guy (to CDC) again...

I can honestly say that the lack of a PAX or better index classing is what is going to keep me from joining CDC.

I have a lower powered car setup on street tires (built for SCCA STS). With the current system, I cannot win, and that is not fun to me. CDC will be nothing but practice/seat time to me, which is not what I hope CDC wants. I'd love to be a more active participant and eventually member, but that won't happen for me if the current system stands.

In addition, you hope to attract new people into the sport. Newer drivers have under-prepared cars and are often on street tires. If they are always at the bottom of the results it can be a bit discouraging.

To the person who said that >90% of the CDC competitors are on street tires - That percentage seems really off compared to what I saw this past weekend.

I hope you folks get a better system in place. It will only benefit you.

Thanks!
Paul

http://www.teamziptie.com

[TubeDriver]

That would be a good start.

Maybe someone (Pete?) can make a special thread on the forum where people can post their name (as it appears on the results) and their PAX.

If people type their PAX in when they register I can query the database and put the name (or alias) and PAX somewhere for you to play with.

Kyle, are organizers allowed to edit posts indefinitely, or are they restricted to 5 minutes as well?

All organizers are by default global forum moderators as well so they can modify posts indefinitely.

[Gonz]

Welcome to CDC! As you can see, CDC is a dynamic club that is seriously looking at ways to improve the competition and safety of our events. I appreciate the support you have shown for a revised PAX based system and hopfully we will be able to implement some form of this system for next season. I agree with your opinion that in the long run our current index system will cause us to lose members.

now you are sounding like a politician again. Heck, you did everything but kiss his baby and hand him a free cigar !!

[TubeDriver]

I know, that is part of why I did it.


And did I mention that I found your earlier comments most constructive and thought provoking. Clearly you have given this much thought, I am glad that we both agree that the best interests of CDC will be served when we implement a new vehicle based Index system. One real measure of the strength of an organization is the quality of it's members; you give me hope for the future.

Welcome to CDC! As you can see, CDC is a dynamic club that is seriously looking at ways to improve the competition and safety of our events. I appreciate the support you have shown for a revised PAX based system and hopfully we will be able to implement some form of this system for next season. I agree with your opinion that in the long run our current index system will cause us to lose members.

now you are sounding like a politician again. Heck, you did everything but kiss his baby and hand him a free cigar !!

[BugBomb]

Your kissing the wrong asses.

Ed is the one we have to convince. Work your politician magic on him.

[TubeDriver]

Mr Chan: Are these the beginnings of profound changes in the Capitol Driving Club? Or are they token gestures, intended to raise false hopes in the ranks of those who would support change, or to strengthen the current CDC Index system without changing it? We welcome change and openness; for we believe that freedom and security go together, that the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the CDC leadership can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace.

General Secretary Ed Chan, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for CDC and for autoXers everywhere, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this discussion! Mr. Chan, enter this debate! Mr. Chan, tear down this Index.!



[with apologies to Pres. Ronald Reagan and his speech at the berlin wall]

Your kissing the wrong asses.

Ed is the one we have to convince. Work your politician magic on him.

[gimp]

Welcome to CDC! As you can see, CDC is a dynamic club that is seriously looking at ways to improve the competition and safety of our events. I appreciate the support you have shown for a revised PAX based system and hopfully we will be able to implement some form of this system for next season. I agree with your opinion that in the long run our current index system will cause us to lose members.

now you are sounding like a politician again. Heck, you did everything but kiss his baby and hand him a free cigar !!

No kids and I quit smoking over 3 years ago...

[ButtDyno]

from kyle: All year long there has been an optional space on the registration form for users to enter their SCCA PAX. Not a single person has ever put it in. Not one.

This is false. I have put mine in every time. Maybe the internets are swallowing it, but I *DEFINITELY* put it in each time I register.

I have to catch up before I can reply again

john

[Gonz]

Mr Chan: Are these the beginnings of profound changes in the Capitol Driving Club? Or are they token gestures, intended to raise false hopes in the ranks of those who would support change, or to strengthen the current CDC Index system without changing it? We welcome change and openness; for we believe that freedom and security go together, that the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the CDC leadership can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace.

General Secretary Ed Chan, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for CDC and for autoXers everywhere, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this discussion! Mr. Chan, enter this debate! Mr. Chan, tear down this Index.!

That's a nice try, but it makes you sound like a diplomat. We aren't looking for diplomacy, we wanted POLITICS That means you have three options for convincing Mr. Chan that you are correct. None of these involve reason, cost-benefit analysis, or anything truly cerebral.

I believe you know what choices I'm talking about, but let's recap for our less politically savy readers.
Option 1. grease his palm so that he can see things clearly.
Optin 2. send a co-ed itern type over to his home to "convince him" of your good ideas.
Option 3. threaten to air some of his dirty laundry.

If 1 2 & 3 do not work you can try some old skool politics. This would be the Tanya Harding method of getting your way. However, I cannot condone such unsophisticated tactics.

[ButtDyno]

Okay I have at least skimmed everything.

Pete and I agree on this so I am not going to introduce a bunch of redundant arguments.

What it comes down to for me is this:
-I'm happy either way, because we can always calculate PAX after the fact for anyone whose car is prepped for an SCCA class. I was going to start doing this at the Oct 20th event and post it on buttdynoracing.com.
-If we are giving prizes, that makes things competitive.
-If we're making things competitive, it should be fair.
-It ain't fair unless it equalizes the car - otherwise you are 100% screwed unless you are in an SS, *SP or SM+ car. An excellent driver in an STS Civic is going to have a hell of a time beating Brian, Mike, Jake, Francois, Pete, et al straight-up even with the "driver" index.
-If we're gonna have an index, base it on the car, not the driver.
-If we're gonna have an index based on the driver, calculate it in a way that removes sandbagging as a possibility.

I don't care what the car-based index is as long as it's something.

I don't think SCCA classing is that hard, and NASA's classing system is based on road racing/time trials, NOT autocross, so the numbers are absolutely not calculated like they would be for autocross.

That's it

John
-trunkmonkey guy

[kyle.bowker]

I stand corrected. I just checked the registration database and there are a total of 62 PAX entries out of a total of 1676 registrations this year. That's < 3%. I can only assume that Ed didn't notice your PAX on the timesheet or didn't want to rank the results according to PAX for the handful of people who did include it. Hopefully, computer automation of timekeeping/scoring will help alleviate this.

[AUTOXR1]

Regarding PAX on Signup. I have noticed it all year long but didn't fill it in because it had no purpose with the current index or results printout so I left it blank. I am sure others felt the same. The <0.3% is thus a meaningless number because it does not reflect any sentiment for PAX pro or con, but a realization that it is one less blank that needs to be filled in.

A PAX system would be fine for CDC, but should probably take into account that many, if not a majority, of entrants are w/o R compound tires. Thus, the SCCA pax is very unfair as it assumes that all will compete at the maximum allowed by the rules (since it is based on nationals competition and national drivers. This requires good R compounds, Koni DA or Bilstein shocks,alignment, etc., although the only really big factor is the tire. From my years of experience, Rs are good for 1-2 seconds on a 45 second course over pure street tires, and probably 0.5-1 second faster than racing street tires run in STS, etc. (Falken Azenis, etc.). Thus, an SCCA PAX could be useable for R compound cars and could be slightly modified to convert to a pure stock class w/ street tires or to a stock class w/ <150 tread wear rating tires.

For example, given a 45 second mean time and a mean handicap of 1.5 seconds compared to R comps, this would be a factor of 0.967x PAX for a pure stock tire and for a mean handicap of 0.75 seconds, this would be a factor of 0.983x PAX for someone with Falken Azenis. I would lump all R comps (Hoosier A6 or R6, Kumho V710 or V700, Toyo RA1, Nitto 555RIIs, etc. with a wear rating of 100 or less) together. RA1s may have marginally less grip, but the added depth and longevity balance it out and are only a real disadvantage to a heavy high horsepower car. Besides RA1s are being discontinued this year and replaced with a different compound and tread design.

I would also like to see CDC move away from the current end of year championship and do something to promote and encourage novices. There should be weekly trophies, magnets, CDC hats, etc. for most improved novice, top novice pax, etc. An end of day ceremony would give instant satisfaction (particularly relevant if a novice only runs a couple times). This would give an incentive similar to the intent of the current index to the people the club encourages the most to participate. Small trophies or magnets are cheap.


Stephen Catlin
99 Camaro SS
91 Camaro 1LE Z28 sans reverse and with one major header leak after dragging the exhaust around all last weekend

[kyle.bowker]

An end of day ceremony would give instant satisfaction (particularly relevant if a novice only runs a couple times).

The problem is no one wants to stay around until the end of the day. The organizers are pretty wiped out by 4pm and I don't think you'll find many volunteers to run the awards ceremony. They just want to pack up and get home! The only people that remain at the end of the day are those that have to be there because they were assigned to Heat 4 and chose to do all 6 runs or because they're an organizer.

Small trophies or magnets are cheap.

The club could spend money in a variety of ways but I don't think we want to spend it on cheap trophies. They're little more than junk and end up being tossed in a drawer and eventually thrown away. This is why we custom make all of our trophies and personalize them and make them unique from all the std. ones you see in trophy shops. And we only give them away at the end of the season so there is some greater appreciation. Magnets will require an investment of several hundreds of dollars in order to get the per unit price down to something reasonable. Even then, do people really care that much? I think people appreciate a free auto-x pass much more.