INDEX SYSTEM

[Gonz]

An end of day ceremony would give instant satisfaction (particularly relevant if a novice only runs a couple times).

The problem is no one wants to stay around until the end of the day. The organizers are pretty wiped out by 4pm and I don't think you'll find many volunteers to run the awards ceremony. They just want to pack up and get home! The only people that remain at the end of the day are those that have to be there because they were assigned to Heat 4 and chose to do all 6 runs or because they're an organizer.

well said, Kyle. We want to make the days shorter, not longer.

[BugBomb]

You could hold special events (maybe ones that usually have lower attendance?) where the most-improved novice gets a free pass...

[ProDarwin]

The club could spend money in a variety of ways but I don't think we want to spend it on cheap trophies. They're little more than junk and end up being tossed in a drawer and eventually thrown away. This is why we custom make all of our trophies and personalize them and make them unique from all the std. ones you see in trophy shops. And we only give them away at the end of the season so there is some greater appreciation. Magnets will require an investment of several hundreds of dollars in order to get the per unit price down to something reasonable. Even then, do people really care that much? I think people appreciate a free auto-x pass much more.

I agree 100%. Cheap trophies look like shit,and get tossed in the trash/closet almost right away. If you're giving them out at every event, receiving one is not longer unique. Same with magnets. If you're looking for an occasional novice prize to hand out, I'd suggest a T-shirt or something.

I was not even aware that CDC handed out custom prizes at the end of the year. That makes me even more displeased with our current index system.

[BugBomb]

Travis,
They hand out trophies for most-improved and for FTD winners. Are you aware that the top points winners get free auto-x passes? The champion gets an entire year of free auto-x with CDC.

[echan]

Begining this year, we won't be handing out trophies for most improved. Mainly because most of the people that win don't show up and never come to claim their trophy, even after I tell them.

BTW, we can no longer get the stopwatches. So this year we plan to have trophies made from old Smith gauges into a clock mounted on a nice bloodwood. Below the clock will be a metal plate with the name inscribed.

As I mentioned several times to the organizers, we can talk about the index system in the off season. So far, I've heard a bunch of comments (many from organizers) but haven't heard from any of the organizers that they are willing to take over the responsiblity of compiling the results.

I also said that I would be more than happy to report raw times only and not have any points. The trophies are a pain in the ass every year, and they cost several hundred dollars. I seriously wonder if the winners even care about them, based on the fact that they don't get picked up, and I have to hand deliver them throught the following year as the winners show up at the events.

On the subject of indexes, we've held about 50 autocrosses over the last 4 years. I've tried many many many times to get one of the organizers to run just one of them and not one time did an organizer step up to be the head organizer to one single autocross. In fact, some organizers place other club events above CDC events.

I also want to make it clear that I really apprieciate the work from all the organizers, and without them, we wouldn't have any events. I also realize that people have family, other interests, and belong to other clubs. I'm realistic about that. However, it becomes an issue of how many organizers can I count on, and to what extent? There's nothing wrong about that, but we should just realize that it is a fact of life. In the end, I alone am stuck with the bag (and Ted since he's the Treasurer).

Typically, I've had to do my runs withou having walked the course, and several times I didn't even run. Kyle has finally stepped up and will be the head organizer for the October 20th event.

A lot of us have big ideas, but those people also have to be willing to comit to their concepts over the long haul. I'm not interested in a labor intensive, time consuming system (it already takes 4 hours to compile the results -last time 10 hours with all the lost timesheets, incorrect points, you name it) resulting from comments from a few people that vaporize when it comes down to do the work. To date, I haven't seen that level of commitment from others. In fact in most events, I can't even tell if I'll have enough organizers at any given event, despite e-mail requests.

I've also stated that this club has a bunch of other concerns that are much more important (e.g. trying to find a NOVA lot and always improving out safety). We really shouldn't be worried about the index system as much compared to worrying if we will have as many autocrosses next year. These statements shouldn't be taken as a threat or a political statement, it is what it is...

[BugBomb]

So this year we plan to have trophies made from old Smith gauges into a clock mounted on a nice bloodwood. Below the clock will be a metal plate with the name inscribed.

That sounds pretty neat. I hope you guys don't eliminate FTD trophies. It's a nice touch.

I am interested in becoming an organizer. Maybe you guys can advertise on the forum here that you are looking for organizers. Some basic information about what is expected of an individual and what they get in return would be nice. Or you could just have people inquire through PM and then send them the info after they "interview" or whatever.

[ProDarwin]

I am interested in becoming an organizer. Maybe you guys can advertise on the forum here that you are looking for organizers. Some basic information about what is expected of an individual and what they get in return would be nice. Or you could just have people inquire through PM and then send them the info after they "interview" or whatever.

+1

[ButtDyno]

As I mentioned several times to the organizers, we can talk about the index system in the off season. So far, I've heard a bunch of comments (many from organizers) but haven't heard from any of the organizers that they are willing to take over the responsiblity of compiling the results.

If you want to send me an Excel file I would be more than happy to calculate PAX

I'll try to find you at the event on the 20th, maybe I can be useful in some other way

John

[echan]

John,

I'll be happy to send you the Excel file but would be happier if you took all the timesheets. That way, the participants can e-mail you that the times were recorded incorrectly or they didn't realize that they we're suppose to bring them home.

Mike,

Right now I think we have enough organizers (20). The issue is increasing the commitment of these organizers, while keeping fun and not over-bearing. If we just add more organizers, I'm afraid we would end up with the same problems that we have now, just more individuals. Organizers get to autocross free. So if we all becam organizers, it would even pay the expenses. Also I noticed that when we are heavy with organizers (more than we need), it doesn't necessarily translate in a smoother better event. My experice has been that events tend to need at least 8-10 organizers. We can just with less organizers but it is difficult. We can run with more, making it easier for each organizer, but after about 12 organizers, the effect isn't noticiable. In fact, I've even heard grubblings from some organizers that they are doing more than other organizers when the staff gets too large. It's a fine balance.

Ed

[kyle.bowker]

You can download the Excel file from the Results page, manipulate it however you'd like, and post it here for others to download.

[MicaCeli]

Ed,

I'm sure all of us that are part of BDR (ButtDynoRacing) would be more then happy to calculate SCCA pax times for people. IF the person signs up with their SCCA class. We can calculate everything else afterwards.

Slava

[TubeDriver]

Ed,
I would start by saying this thread is supposed to be about Indexes. Trophies or organizers commitment is clearly a completely different topic. But since you mentioned them in the index thread, I would say on a related note that part of the reason I give preference to Mercedes events over CDC events is that:

1) Mercedes runs 8 events, CDC run more than twice that so I don't feel the need to make EVERY CDC event
2) The second and just as important reason is that Mercedes uses the complete SCCA PAX system and when that type of system is used I am competitive (won 1st overall for 2007). Since I rank somewhere around 40th overall in the CDC system, I don't feel any compelling pressure to show up other than my desire to drive and hang out/socialize.
3) The competitive and more fair nature of SCCA and Mercedes events (and other events) may be why you see experienced drivers like Brian Karwan or Francois attending SCCA events over CDC events (even though you only get 4 runs with SCCA).
4) You are right about people having other driving committments. If you examine my list you will see that there are Mercedes events I missed because of scheduling conflicts etc. I simply can't make every CDC event. Here is what I did this year:

Feb 16-18 VIR NASA
March 3 Summit Point Instructors SCCA PDX
March 24 CDC autoX Frederick, MD (afternoon)
March 24 BMW Defensive Driving Clinic (morning)
March 25 SCCA AutoX
March 31 Summit Point SCCA PDX
April 7 CDC AutoX, Manassas, VA (canceled)
April 14-15 Summit Point Mazda Drivers LLC (attending Saturday only)
April 15 Mercedes AutoX(canceled)
April 21 CDC AutoX, Frederick, MD
April 22 SCCA AutoX
April 29 Mercedes Defensive Driving Clinic
May 12 SCCA AutoX
May 12 CDC AutoX, Frederick, MD (attend afternoon only)
May 19-20 Summit point R32 (registered)
May 21 Summit Point Mercedes (open to all cars) (registered)
May 26 CDC AutoX, Manassas, VA
May 27 Mercedes AutoX
June 3 Summit Point SCCA PDX (registered)
June 9 CDC AutoX, Frederick, MD
June 14-15 VIR Mercedes/Audi (registered)
June 16-17 VIR Grand Mazda Drivers LLC (will not attend)
June 17 SCCA AutoX
June 23-24 Summit Point NASA (registered)
June 24 Mercedes AutoX (will not attend)
June 24 CDC AutoX, Bowie Baysox Stadium, Bowie, MD (will not attend)
July 7 CDC AutoX, Manassas, VA
July 8 Mercedes AutoX
July 14 Summit Point SCCA PDX
July 15 SCCA AutoX
July 21 CDC AutoX, Frederick, MD
July 27 Summit Point Corvette Club
August 4-5 Summit Point Mercedes
August 11 CDC AutoX, Frederick, MD
August 12 SCCA autox
August 12 Mercedes AutoX (will not attend)
August 18 CDC AutoX, Manassas, VA
August 25-26 Summit Point NASA (will not attend
Sept 1-2 VIR Mazda Drivers LLC
Sept 2 SCCA AutoX
Sept 8 Summit Point SCCA PDX (already registered)
Sept 9 Mercedes AutoX
Sept 14-15 StarTech Mercedes
Sept 17-18 Summit Point, Mercedes Only StarTech
Sept 23, CDC AutoX, Bowie Baysox Stadium, Bowie, MD
Oct 7 Mercedes Autox
Oct 14
Oct 13-14 Summit Point NASA (registered)
Oct 19-21 Fall Colors 2007
Oct 26-27 Summit point Mazda Drivers LLC
Oct 28 Summit Point Corvette Club (registered)
Oct 28 Mercedes AutoX (will not attend)
Nov 4 Mercedes AutoX
Nov 17-18 VIR Audi (already registered and have room)


So you have decided that if the club switches indexes that I have to do this? I don't understand how you fail to see that 99% of the people who actually care about an Index want a change. The system I proposed would be MUCH easier to calculate then the current system. You created the current system and knew it was going to be difficult to score, I can't see why you would not want to switch over to a simpler system to score (one number to calculate with raw time for each person at each event) and that is a more fair system. I will repeat this: The revised system that we are proposing would be MORE SIMPLE to calculate. The current system requires the results of the last three events to be taken into account, that is a tremendous burden for someone calculating scores, and if you make a mistake on one person, it will effect other people rankings.


Ed, perhaps part of the reason that people have not stepped forward to run the events for you is because CDC is your baby, you run it, you are in control of it and despite the notion that we are an open club, every decision is made by you. This fact that you and Kyle can stop dozens of organizers and members from revising the Index system demonstrates that more than ever. As an organizer, all I can do is throw out my opinion but it is up to you to accept it or dismiss it. As long as this club in 100% yours, you will probably end up doing the lions share of the work, fair or not. I don't think it really is effective to have multiple Indexes running at the same time or a SCCA like PAX on the side calculated by someone else.

Saying that I or someone else will have to do all the scoring if we accept a new Index system is like me saying that I will only only work if we get a new system. It just takes this discussion to a whole new level and not one I would think CDC would aspire to.

Begining this year, we won't be handing out trophies for most improved. Mainly because most of the people that win don't show up and never come to claim their trophy, even after I tell them.

BTW, we can no longer get the stopwatches. So this year we plan to have trophies made from old Smith gauges into a clock mounted on a nice bloodwood. Below the clock will be a metal plate with the name inscribed.

As I mentioned several times to the organizers, we can talk about the index system in the off season. So far, I've heard a bunch of comments (many from organizers) but haven't heard from any of the organizers that they are willing to take over the responsiblity of compiling the results.

I also said that I would be more than happy to report raw times only and not have any points. The trophies are a pain in the ass every year, and they cost several hundred dollars. I seriously wonder if the winners even care about them, based on the fact that they don't get picked up, and I have to hand deliver them throught the following year as the winners show up at the events.

On the subject of indexes, we've held about 50 autocrosses over the last 4 years. I've tried many many many times to get one of the organizers to run just one of them and not one time did an organizer step up to be the head organizer to one single autocross. In fact, some organizers place other club events above CDC events.

I also want to make it clear that I really apprieciate the work from all the organizers, and without them, we wouldn't have any events. I also realize that people have family, other interests, and belong to other clubs. I'm realistic about that. However, it becomes an issue of how many organizers can I count on, and to what extent? There's nothing wrong about that, but we should just realize that it is a fact of life. In the end, I alone am stuck with the bag (and Ted since he's the Treasurer).

Typically, I've had to do my runs withou having walked the course, and several times I didn't even run. Kyle has finally stepped up and will be the head organizer for the October 20th event.

A lot of us have big ideas, but those people also have to be willing to comit to their concepts over the long haul. I'm not interested in a labor intensive, time consuming system (it already takes 4 hours to compile the results -last time 10 hours with all the lost timesheets, incorrect points, you name it) resulting from comments from a few people that vaporize when it comes down to do the work. To date, I haven't seen that level of commitment from others. In fact in most events, I can't even tell if I'll have enough organizers at any given event, despite e-mail requests.

I've also stated that this club has a bunch of other concerns that are much more important (e.g. trying to find a NOVA lot and always improving out safety). We really shouldn't be worried about the index system as much compared to worrying if we will have as many autocrosses next year. These statements shouldn't be taken as a threat or a political statement, it is what it is...

[kyle.bowker]

The index system can be discussed in isolation but in reality everything in the organization is interrelated. I think Ed became overworked long ago but soldiers on because the club has grown to the extent it has and taken on such great meaning with so many people that he feels he can't let him down. It's clear to me that what Ed desires is less work, not more. Sure, a new index may be easier to calculate, but I think what Ed would like to see is for others in the club to take a leadership role and run several autocrosses as head organizer and shift many of the responsibilities from himself to others. It is too much to ask one man to spend 3-4 days per week doing all the stuff that is required to run an auto-x event. If we can share the burden it would be much better. We may have enough organizers for now but we could use more pre- and post-event support from them.

Also, please understand that any change takes time to consider and implement. Don't give up just because it hasn't happened yet. I feel this discussion about what index to use will continue on for some time yet and that is perfectly okay.

[Gonz]

If anyone needs help keying in #'s, I can help with that. If you are familiar with using the ten digit key pad, then keying a few hundred numbers is not too time intensive.

123
456
789
890

see what I mean

hate to quote myself, but I did offer to help with keying in the results based on Pete's modified PAX index. This will be EASIER than using the current index system. If I'm not at the particular event you can mail the time sheets to me.

[kyle.bowker]

I think that is a generous offer. Hopefully, we can implement a system that requires little to no manual data entry and that calculates the results automatically. But developing that system takes time/effort. Calling all computer programmers! All computer programmers to the forum please!

[gimp]

//Start programming

AX-ware

http://www.axwaresystems.com/index.htm

//End programming

[TubeDriver]

I agree that Ed is probably overworked. Look at my motorsports schedule, I understand what it feels like to sort of burnout a bit. As long as we can continue to discuss the merits of an Index system I think it will be positive. I just do not want it to turn into a thread about organizer commitment or burnout etc. I do think the new system will be easier to score than the current system. That is a plus.

To some extent, I also worked at CDC events because I did not want to let folks down. Again, look at my schedule, I don't attend CDC events because I don't get enough seat time elsewhere. I am no longer a Board member for Mercedes (stepped down at the end of this year) and I will not be running at the SCCA autoX events next year so I should have a little more time in the 2008 season.

Part of the issue may be communication. Believe it or not, I was really not aware that ED wanted someone to completely run an event. I guess thinking back I can remember him saying so but I never took it literally. I always figured he wanted more people to handle timeing (which I have done regularly at events), cook food (which I have done ocaasionally), tech cars (always do), ran drivers meeting (last event) etc.

The index system can be discussed in isolation but in reality everything in the organization is interrelated. I think Ed became overworked long ago but soldiers on because the club has grown to the extent it has and taken on such great meaning with so many people that he feels he can't let him down. It's clear to me that what Ed desires is less work, not more. Sure, a new index may be easier to calculate, but I think what Ed would like to see is for others in the club to take a leadership role and run several autocrosses as head organizer and shift many of the responsibilities from himself to others. It is too much to ask one man to spend 3-4 days per week doing all the stuff that is required to run an auto-x event. If we can share the burden it would be much better. We may have enough organizers for now but we could use more pre- and post-event support from them.

Also, please understand that any change takes time to consider and implement. Don't give up just because it hasn't happened yet. I feel this discussion about what index to use will continue on for some time yet and that is perfectly okay.

[ButtDyno]

Computer programmer checking in.

:waves:

If you need computer hax0ring I am happy to help (though if it is not related to indexing it should probably be in a new thread).

I mostly do Java stuff but I may be able to dust off the old VB skeelz if you need a client app or something.

(if you don't buy something)

john

[TubeDriver]

I agreed to be a point man and help out folks if they can not figure out what class they are in or how to calculate their final Index value.

So it will be super simple: just send Pete an e-mail with a description of your vehicle and I will send you back an e-mail with a number.

Computer programmer checking in.

:waves:

If you need computer hax0ring I am happy to help (though if it is not related to indexing it should probably be in a new thread).

I mostly do Java stuff but I may be able to dust off the old VB skeelz if you need a client app or something.

(if you don't buy something)

john

[ButtDyno]

If you were at CDC today and you are interested in seeing what your PAX would have been, let me know what your SCCA class is, or what car you drive and what mods you have, and I will put you into the PAX spreadsheet when the results are out.

Thanks

John

[mla163]

PM'ed you John.

I'm curious to see how the PAX affects the results compared to the index method.

[FamilyTruckster]

I'd like to see what the PAX would be for the wagon. I bet it'll hurt big time. No clue what class it would be in. SM or some prepared class....

Mods are:

Intake manifold, Heads, Cam, headers, full exhaust, springs, shocks, newer spindles/control arms, different rear gears, LSD, fuel pump, piggyback, steering box, rear swaybar, poly bushings, regeared trans, stall converter, shift kit, 4 wheel disc brakes, +2 wheels, R-comps...


My thoughts on the index. I like it for now, I like top 10 finishes. (great for bragging about the wagon) I base most of my comparisons off the raw times though. However, with my limited attendance I'm in no part of the points race. I'm out there for fun, and to see what how I compare to other drivers and cars.

[WRX11]

I see everyone's reasoning for a PAX change and Ed has already discussed about holding a meeting during off season to come to a revised version and improve from there as needed.

I think it's good that Pete, Gonz, Jon, Kyle, etc. all have volunteered to help. I think a round table discussion would definitely help us move towards a refined AX group.

Having been involved for a short time, I already see the numerous tasks planning that goes into a good event. If there aren't enough organizers to help with each event it only adds to the headache. Needless to say, I am not surprised to read about Ed C's feedback and his need to get a free weekend.

[DaveL20]

I'd like to see what the PAX would be for the wagon. I bet it'll hurt big time. No clue what class it would be in. SM or some prepared class....

Mods are:

Intake manifold, Heads, Cam, headers, full exhaust, springs, shocks, newer spindles/control arms, different rear gears, LSD, fuel pump, piggyback, steering box, rear swaybar, poly bushings, regeared trans, stall converter, shift kit, 4 wheel disc brakes, +2 wheels, R-comps...


My thoughts on the index. I like it for now, I like top 10 finishes. (great for bragging about the wagon) I base most of my comparisons off the raw times though. However, with my limited attendance I'm in no part of the points race. I'm out there for fun, and to see what how I compare to other drivers and cars.

You would be in Street Mod with all those Mods

[ButtDyno]

Check out the Oct 20th thread for some hyper-thetical PAX results.