INDEX SYSTEM

[ProDarwin]

One way to solve the issue of inconsistent performance resulting in a favorable index is to allow the index to move in only one direction.

What if you change cars? Your screwed

[kyle.bowker]

That is one downside.

[echan]

Gee, if that is not enough how about the performance of Ross and me this weekend?


I got a 45.9, Ross got a 46.0 both in S2000. Pretty close right?

Ross scored 6th in the CDC Index, I scored 41st in the index.


How can anyone continue to defend this system? It is completely screwy.

I can defend the results. You need to look at the past three events that both you and Ross did. You can a combined points of 517. Ross has 496. Basically, the current system favors people that improve. As long as you do better over three events (the number which the events are averaged), you will get more points over three events. So the system really isn't as screwy as you think.

So giving new drivers a handicap doesn't make sense?? This club heavily relys on getting newbies interested in sticking with autocross. This club also makes a tremendous effort to project a "fun" environment. As many pointed out to me that having a points race is counter to this "fun" environment.

I can see their point and have considered that maybe we shouldn't have any points competition. However, about half the people I talked to (at the last few events) think we should continue with some type of points competition the other half are split of "don't care" or "get rid of the points."

One person (one of the top drivers) even said that the reward of a season pass maybe too much and could be the cause of some problems. We may consider dramatically reducing or eliminating the free passes. I think this comment says a lot because lets say he will have some free passes next year.

In terms of the compling results, we have 23 organizers and don't want to add to the number of organizers. If an ORGANIZER is going to COMMIT to posting the results in the "new" system, we can post that system. The last thing we need, is a person to do the results and few times, then stop because "they didn't feel like doing it." I think next year, we should post both methods as comparision.

I talked to many participants last weekend (and last couple events) and many told me that they prefer not to use a PAX or modified PAX. They want something super easy with no disputes. These people also voiced their complaints of people "stretching the truth" on what their index should be vs that they report. EVERYONE I talked to said they would go along with any system. However, if they don't like it, they are just going to stew over it silently. I really don't think this type of "stewing" environment is really what we want.

As I repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly said, the organizers can discuss it over the off-season and determine what we should do.

[ProDarwin]

So giving new drivers a handicap doesn't make sense?? This club heavily relys on getting newbies interested in sticking with autocross.

Actually Ed, you don't give driver's a handicap for their first event. The index is actually a huge penalty, because everyone starts dead last in the index, as opposed to having the average index score. For example: My first event I scored 83 points raw. Since there was no previous record of my performance, my index time becomes equal to the average raw time. This would give me 78 points from the index. Instead, I was awarded 61 - the lowest value. All newbies are punished in this manner.

It seems to me that the above would almost discourage newbies, since most 1st timers are going to have a fairly unimpressive raw time/points, and when you combine that with the lowest possible index point value, you end up with a pretty low score.

This club also makes a tremendous effort to project a "fun" environment. As many pointed out to me that having a points race is counter to this "fun" environment.

Many have also pointed out that competition is what makes autocross fun. Having a points race which requires you to show up and drive slow is not fun. The definition posted on the CDC website defines autocross as a "contest"

Autocross (also known as auto-x or Solo events) is an all forward motion driving skill contest.

I think next year, we should post both methods as comparision.

I agree with this 100%

However, if they don't like it, they are just going to stew over it silently. I really don't think this type of "stewing" environment is really what we want.

I guess this is better than many of us "stewing" over it publicly?


I'm sure you guys will come up with a reasonable solution during the off season.

[BugBomb]

So what gets newcomers out to auto-x? Is the index accomplishing this by making them feel better about their performances?

I would think the best way to attract newcomers would be to have a sale. The Andrewtech & TurboXS sponsored event was a great idea, in my opinion. However, you could probably take further steps to encourage participation from people that haven't done it before. Perhaps you could reserve 20 spots for non-members at a special event and get a sponsor to cover half of their entry fee? Maybe give them a discount if they want to join the club that day. You could gear a lot of things toward this crowd for that particular day. Have a driver's meeting just for them that explains things in more detail. Guarantee them an instructor for their runs. Also encourage them to ride along with experienced drivers. You could even include a free hot dog or sausage at O'donnell's Grill (R), conveniently located right near the timing tent.

[Ben L]

I posted this in another thread. Perhaps it belongs here. . .

Well, despite some controversies here and there, as one of the "Cobra zealots," I just want to say that I think you guys ran a really great, laid-back but "as competitive as you want to make it" season.

There is always real racing, and anyone's guess who will take FTD. But as much as the organizers deserve kudos, the next best thing about CDC is the drivers. I really enjoy meeting and hanging out with drivers of all ages and automotive orientations, gathering in a spirit of friendly competition, sharing the goals of having fun and improving their driving and racing skills.

If we seem a litle touchy about our cars, remember that for the most part, they were built at home, specially to suit the owner. So they are true labors of love and extensions of ourselves.

As you grapple with the index system for next year, please avoid the pressures to make things "more SCCA-like." One of the attractive things about CDC autox is that it ISN'T like SCCA.

I would also weigh in against PAX based indexing. As a rule I hate it, because our fundamentally homebuilt cars have a huge range of variability in power (some 351 strokers, some supercharged, some big blocks, and some, like me, run wheezy old small block 5.0 EFI naturally aspirated plants) and other mods, and yet we are just lumped into XP. And yet a car like a well driven S2000 can give a Cobra a run for its money any day.

I believe I am a poster child for Ed's index system. Due to much tweaking, coaching and work, my driving improved steadily over the season, and it was exciting to see the gains rewarded in the index.

Thanks again to all of you guys, organizers and fellow drivers. You'll figure out what to do for next year, and not everyone will like it. So what?

Looking forward to more fun next year!

[TubeDriver]

Kyle,
By external valdity, I mean two nearly identical cars with almost identical times but the faster driver gets ranked 41st and the slower driver gets ranked 6th. How is that a level playing field?

It lacks external validity (a nice way of saying it has very little to do with reality).

To say the CDC index is out of touch with reality is disingenuous. If by external validity you mean SCCA, who says we need to adopt their approach? PAX is a rather arbitrary number meant to provide some level of parity amongst cars of vastly different design, construction, and performance capability. Its success in providing a "level playing field" varies from one event to another. In reality, there is no such thing as a level playing field in racing. That is unless everyone has the same amount of time, money, and skill and is running the same tamper-proof spec car that is prepared to the same standard by the same people.

In a related manner to the problem with consistency, I have to say that on further reflection, not reporting your times (for a competitive advantage) seems almost a step beyond typical sandbagging. Unless everyone can drop times from events in order to manipulate their Index?

We take members at their word. If someone says they were off course, then they were off course. One way to solve the issue of inconsistent performance resulting in a favorable index is to allow the index to move in only one direction.

[TubeDriver]

No, it does not make any sense. At all.

AutoX is fun thing to do, you don't have to artificially bump up new drivers scores to get them back. No one else has any problem with keeping new people why should we be any different. You really think anyone pays attention to the CDC Index scores anymore (except for a few people who are trying to win the season)?

Everyone now looks at raw scores at CDC events because they make a little sense but that certainly screws beginners.

Explain to me how many newbies you think we would have lost of we had a reasonably fair SCCA like system? Exactly who would have not come back?

The only incentive I see out current system offers is:

1) sandbag or misreport your times in order to win
2) it might drive away more experienced autoxers who are tired of getting ranked 40th+ since they drive consistently fast.

So giving new drivers a handicap doesn't make sense?? This club heavily relys on getting newbies interested in sticking with autocross.

[ButtDyno]

I would also weigh in against PAX based indexing. As a rule I hate it, because our fundamentally homebuilt cars have a huge range of variability in power (some 351 strokers, some supercharged, some big blocks, and some, like me, run wheezy old small block 5.0 EFI naturally aspirated plants) and other mods, and yet we are just lumped into XP. And yet a car like a well driven S2000 can give a Cobra a run for its money any day.

How much does your car weigh?

[BugBomb]

I had an idea that could greatly reduce the advantage of sandbagging.

Currently, we average the last 3 event indexes for each participant. Instead, we could drop the lowest index of the last 3 and only average the remaining 2.

For anyone that changes to a different car, it will take a couple events for their index to adjust, but a single, poor performance will have no impact on someone's index. They would have to sandbag two events in a row, and that only gives them 2 events to compete with a lowered index (normally you get 3).

[BugBomb]

I would also weigh in against PAX based indexing. As a rule I hate it, because our fundamentally homebuilt cars have a huge range of variability in power (some 351 strokers, some supercharged, some big blocks, and some, like me, run wheezy old small block 5.0 EFI naturally aspirated plants) and other mods, and yet we are just lumped into XP. And yet a car like a well driven S2000 can give a Cobra a run for its money any day.

How much does your car weigh?

And what size tires can you fit under a Cobra?

The majority of differences between Cobras are not very important for auto-x. Some Cobras have huge horsepower, or expensive suspensions, or independent rears, but this isn't as important as the fact that all Cobras pretty much start with ~300 lb-ft, a light-weight chassis, and room for huge tires.

I don't think many others will agree that some Cobras should be taken out of XP, but wouldn't you like a modifier that allowed you to compare your street tire runs to the race tire Cobras?

[kyle.bowker]

By external valdity, I mean two nearly identical cars with almost identical times but the faster driver gets ranked 41st and the slower driver gets ranked 6th. How is that a level playing field?

In reality, there is no such thing as a level playing field in racing.

[TubeDriver]

Kyle,

In reality, two identical cars getting almost identical times but one person getting 41st place and the slower person getting 6th is not leveling the playing field, it is the opposite; you are stacking the field and rigging the game.

Just about any other system (including the SCCA) does a much better job of leveling the playing field since our system actually stacks the odds against fast, consistent driving.

It is just pedantic to keep talking about leveling the playing field in some Platonic absolute sense. Everyone here know that no system is perfect but clearly our system is inadequate and in many ways counter productive.

By external valdity, I mean two nearly identical cars with almost identical times but the faster driver gets ranked 41st and the slower driver gets ranked 6th. How is that a level playing field?

In reality, there is no such thing as a level playing field in racing.

[Wade Chamberlain]

How much does your car weigh?

And what size tires can you fit under a Cobra?

The majority of differences between Cobras are not very important for auto-x. Some Cobras have huge horsepower, or expensive suspensions, or independent rears, but this isn't as important as the fact that all Cobras pretty much start with ~300 lb-ft, a light-weight chassis, and room for huge tires.

My heap weighs 2386# ready to race (without me). It's a tad heavier than most live axle cars because of the supercharger, steel bellhousing, trailer hitch, etc. 2200-2300 would be pretty normal though. Add maybe 100# for the IRS cars. The later FFR's (Mk2 & Mk3) can fit 315/35-17 in back (17x10.5) and 275/40-17 up front (17x9) with no trouble. 295/40-17 is as big as I can put on the back of my old Mk1 car....at least until this winter when I break out the sawzall and welder to make room for 315's.

[TubeDriver]

Those are pretty impressive numbers. My stock S2000 weighs about 2850 (without driver) and has about 150 ft/lbs of torque with about 240 hp. I can fit 275 and 245/40 (which is the size of my Hoosiers) but usually show up with 225 and 255 17" tires. I will probably add some suspension mods over the winter (coilovers) which will allow me to get more neg camber.

How much does your car weigh?

And what size tires can you fit under a Cobra?

The majority of differences between Cobras are not very important for auto-x. Some Cobras have huge horsepower, or expensive suspensions, or independent rears, but this isn't as important as the fact that all Cobras pretty much start with ~300 lb-ft, a light-weight chassis, and room for huge tires.

My heap weighs 2386# ready to race (without me). It's a tad heavier than most live axle cars because of the supercharger, steel bellhousing, trailer hitch, etc. 2200-2300 would be pretty normal though. Add maybe 100# for the IRS cars. The later FFR's (Mk2 & Mk3) can fit 315/35-17 in back (17x10.5) and 275/40-17 up front (17x9) with no trouble. 295/40-17 is as big as I can put on the back of my old Mk1 car....at least until this winter when I break out the sawzall and welder to make room for 315's.

[Wade Chamberlain]

Sorry..forgot to list the HP & TQ...

446 rwhp
442 rwtq

...admittedly too much power for my skill-set. It's an excercise in wheelspin control, but it sure is fun.

[Wade Chamberlain]

...so as not to hijack the thread, I'll comment on the INDEX system. I was indifferent about it until it became obvious that it could be manipulated. After that, I looked at raw times only. Personally, I'm really only interested in raw times and where I finish in relation to the other Cobra guys. I do feel a "championship" should reward the best DRIVERS though...not the most improved or the ability to manipulate the scoring

[Ben L]

How much does my car weigh?

-- Don't know, but Wade's nos. are about right. I have an IRS car with a cast iron pumpkin and adjustable upper and lower cas out back, so its heavier than a 3-link or 5-link, but that helps fore and aft balance

How much tire can I stuff under there?

-- I have a Mark II and we did the sawzall and welder thing this year, so 315s in the rear and 275s in the front, although I find 255s have less rolling resistance and seem to turn in a bit quicker, with no appreciable sacrifice in grippage.

How much power am I making?

Right around 300 hp to the rear wheels at redline of 5800 rpms. Not sure on torque, but figure 280-310 ft. lbs or so.

Yeah, I know. Wah Wah. Poor me.

Look, guys, I'm not asking for any breaks or sympathy on car classing and index scoring. Truly, all that doesn't bother me, but it was cool to see my improvement rewarded in the index scores.

Like Wade, I pay more attention to driving skills obvious to the eyeball, and raw times than indexed and Pax adjusted stuff. And there's plenty of competition for the Cobras by those measures. And room for more.

The point I was trying to make is CDC events are FUN and COMPETITIVE and you guys all are, as a rule, good sporting folks.

So do what you like.

I'll keep showing up until ordered to leave, and maybe not even then.

[FamilyTruckster]

And my car is 4470 with under 250hp and about 300ft lbs, and I can fit 315's all around. Doesn't mean I can run 4 seconds quicker,and compete with the cobras. With multiple people saying I'm SM, I'd be .856 vs. the Cobras XP .874

PAX'd times...
Wade (FFR Cobra) RAW 44.64 PAX 39.02
Me (CountrySquire) RAW 48.22 PAX 41.28

So 3 seconds instead of 4

I'm not that worried about the index, I'm not ever going to be competetive in points unless I cut my car up and make it race only.

And for the cobra powerplant issue, all of them have plenty of power. None can run WOT without breaking loose. I can understand a modifier for the few that are running street tires. A wieght modifier would be nice too! Since I'm essentially racing the equivalent of two (or 3 ) miatas!

[Gonz]

Those are pretty impressive numbers.

are they ?

your S2000 is making 2HP per cubic inch with no power adder. The cobras make 1HP per CID
"stock" and 1.5 with a blower. That's 1960's tech for sure.

Just be glad they are running small blocks and not making 700 ft-lb of torque with a BB. Don't forget your car has some impressive items as well: double wish bone independent suspension at all 4 corners, remote reservoir shocks, aluminum body panels, double overhead camshafts both having Variable valve Timing with Electronic Control, 4 valves per cylinder, six forward gears, ABS, power steering, quick ratio steering, 9000 RPM redline, 50/50 weight split with motor behind the front axle, yada yada yada.

Basically an F1 car with fenders.

the Cobras have big motors, stiff springs and a live axle. Basically an oxcart with a sexy body and big lungs. I'd say it's a pretty good matchup. You can't blame them for brining their big tires and you leaving yours at home.

Most of us out there don't even own Hoosiers, and don't run Victoracers as our "back up "tires. just good old fashioned street tires, but hey, it's still fun.

(( the point is you COULD seriously compete for the season championship if you wanted to. You just have to work the index properly))

If PAX indexing is going to make us "SCCA Like" where everyone complains that other cars should be eliminated from their class, until theirs is the fastest one left, I'd rather stick with the "sandbag system."

In that case, here's what I'll do next year. FIrst event, I run with 400 lbs of sand in the trunk, next event 350 lbs of sand in the trunk, next event 300lb, and so on, until I stop sand bagging at the last event and win it all

[TubeDriver]

That really would be sandbagging

You got a few things wrong with my car.

My rear shocks do have a extra reservoirs but they are not remote.
no Al panels (except the hood and perhaps the trunk)
8000 rpm redline


I think 2200-2300 lb cars with 300-600 hp that can fit 315 Hoosiers is pretty impressive. the fact that my 2850 lb car with 150 ft/lb torque/240 hp can compete does speak to the fact that my car handles/stops better.

As for tires, Most of not all the top 10 cars at CDC are on Hoosiers or V710s. I may be the only person on worn out Victoracers who is close to the top 5. I have a new set of street tires (RE-01R) that I will use when my Victos cord out. You are partially right about not me competing, I don't care enough to swap my Hoosiers in for CDC events. I attend them for fun, the secondary reason is for additional seat time. I have very little interest in winning for the season but I admit that I don't really like my name down in the 41st position at the CDC Index score webpage.


I think the SCCA stock class is still the best comprehensive way of classifing cars. The new 2008 index is out and all classes have been adjusted.

Those are pretty impressive numbers.

are they ?

your S2000 is making 2HP per cubic inch with no power adder. The cobras make 1HP per CID
"stock" and 1.5 with a blower. That's 1960's tech for sure.

Just be glad they are running small blocks and not making 700 ft-lb of torque with a BB. Don't forget your car has some impressive items as well: double wish bone independent suspension at all 4 corners, remote reservoir shocks, aluminum body panels, double overhead camshafts both having Variable valve Timing with Electronic Control, 4 valves per cylinder, six forward gears, ABS, power steering, quick ratio steering, 9000 RPM redline, 50/50 weight split with motor behind the front axle, yada yada yada.

Basically an F1 car with fenders.

the Cobras have big motors, stiff springs and a live axle. Basically an oxcart with a sexy body and big lungs. I'd say it's a pretty good matchup. You can't blame them for brining their big tires and you leaving yours at home.

Most of us out there don't even own Hoosiers, and don't run Victoracers as our "back up "tires. just good old fashioned street tires, but hey, it's still fun.

(( the point is you COULD seriously compete for the season championship if you wanted to. You just have to work the index properly))

If PAX indexing is going to make us "SCCA Like" where everyone complains that other cars should be eliminated from their class, until theirs is the fastest one left, I'd rather stick with the "sandbag system."

In that case, here's what I'll do next year. FIrst event, I run with 400 lbs of sand in the trunk, next event 350 lbs of sand in the trunk, next event 300lb, and so on, until I stop sand bagging at the last event and win it all

[BugBomb]

As for tires, Most of not all the top 10 cars at CDC are on Hoosiers or V710s. I may be the only person on worn out Victoracers who is close to the top 5. I have a new set of street tires (RE-01R) that I will use when my Victos cord out. You are partially right about not me competing, I don't care enough to swap my Hoosiers in for CDC events. I attend them for fun, the secondary reason is for additional seat time. I have very little interest in winning for the season but I admit that I don't really like my name down in the 41st position at the CDC Index score webpage.

Hoosiers or V710s are definitely not required to be competitive in CDC's raw times. Since July, I have consistenly placed in the top 4 and set one FTD on a $200 set of well-worn, 235/45/17 RA1s. I'm a fan of RA1s now. Not because they are awesome race tires. They are actually pretty inferior. I just like how tolerant they are of high temperatures. It's much easier to deal with during the summer, especially with co-drivers.

My vehicle's specs fall short of Cobra territory in other areas as well. The SUXASS weighs about 2,750 pounds despite the stripped interior, and 60% of that weight is on the front wheels. It also has somewhere around 220 HP/TQ at the wheels, stock WRX brakes/pads, and a frankenstein suspension of cheap coil-overs (3 Megans, 1 JIC) since we haven't had the means to invest in new components.

[TubeDriver]

I like RA-1s better than Victoracers for the same reason. They just get faster the more runs you do. The Victoracers have an advantage on the first run but I think things become roughly equivilent after that except that the RA-1s do not heat cycle out like the Victoracers. My Victoracers feel like crap after two months of sitting around and running events. I just broke my track record at VIR Full on a set of RA-1s that I was expecting to cord.

[motomoron]

+1 on RA1s. Mine got better and better the shaggier they got. Just don't get caught up in the moment, forget to bleed down between runs and jack 'em up above about 38psi. Mine got mighty greasy the one time I did that.

[jmac]

I like the idea of using the SCCA system. Let them do the work and we can modify it to suit our needs. When I ran SCCA road courses I was never the fastest car on the track, but I ran with a group of drivers that were close and we had our own race back in the pack. I might have finished 16th but if I beat the people in my group I had a great day. I find the same is true at CDC. When I look at the standings I look to see if I beat someone who I run close to all year. Maybe we could use some type of average or handycap system.