INDEX SYSTEM

[mla163]

This board is pretty quiet when nobody is racing.

Organizers, have you put any more thought into what kind of system to use for the 2008 season?

[ProDarwin]

I am curious about this as well.

(Fair Market Value / Gas Mileage) * Raw Time sounds good to me!

[mla163]

I am curious about this as well.

(Fair Market Value / Gas Mileage) * Raw Time sounds good to me!

How about...

[(Fair Market Value * req'd octane) / (Gas Mileage * tire treadwear rating)] * Raw Time

I'm pretty sure this is how the BCS works. Can someone run some sample calcs?

[kyle.bowker]

We're still in discussions. You can be certain that any index system we employ with be simple. Chances are if CDC implements a new index system it will promote greater competition, reduce the significance of the car and place greater focus on the driver. The organizers are planning to meet in a few weeks. Perhaps there will be a consensus at that time.

[kyle.bowker]

[(Fair Market Value * req'd octane) / (Gas Mileage * tire treadwear rating)] * Raw Time

Talk about complicated! Let's see, I got my car for free but dumped $20k in mods but it's still only worth $5k on the open market. It can use 87 octane but would be much happier on 101. Gas mileage varies significantly. Using EPA ratings only works if all cars were originally measured under the same rating system. EPA didn't exist when Richard's Morgan was first built, and EPA ratings do not take into account significant modifications like FI or engine swaps. Tire tread wear rating is only comparable amongst tires from the same manufacturer. You cannot claim that a Toyo with tread wear rating of 140 is comparable to a Michelin with the same tread wear rating. The tire manufacturer decides what tread wear rating to give each tire and that value can be completely arbitrary. The only thing keeping a mfr from making a "cheater" tire is the possibility that SCCA might ban said tire from auto-x competition.

[mla163]

I forgot to factor in the coaches poll

[ButtDyno]

Raw time * number of driven wheels * number of monkeys on trunk?

[FamilyTruckster]

(length in feet) /(wieght in lbs * number of seatbelts)

[TubeDriver]

You all got it all wrong. It should be:


number of passengers X number of drive wheels divided by HP X weight + ambient outdoor temp X shoe modifier (racing shoe>wrestling show>sneaker>dress shoe>boot all divided by car invoice price + 1/2 household income of the driver.





And this is not all that far away from the ongoing organizers discussion on this topic. We are working on it.

[Gonz]

And this is not all that far away from the ongoing organizers discussion on this topic. We are working on it.

hey, you aren't supposed to give away any of our secrets Now everyone is going to show up in combat boots.

[purplepeopleeater]

Kyle
First a kvetch, aint no such animal as a factory 59 Morgan +8. The B-O-P motors that eventually grew up to be the 4.6 in Richards car weren't produced in Amurrican cars until 1961. The first year for the +8 was 1968 after the demise of the TR motor. "Young folks shouldn't quote history they don't know, old folks have the option of lying & claiming they were there."
Autoxing a 35 year old vehicle that wasn't particularly fast 'back in the day' makes me somewhat immune to high expectations. If given a choice between a regular autox & a 'Test'n'Tune' I'll take the latter & hope to get an extra run.
I don't understand the PAX system & frankly if it doesn't make me as fast as Joe's Sprite I don't care about it either. I run for the adrenalin rush, I bencbmark by how much I improve on a given day with a quick eye on the other old cars that run regularly.
PAX it, class it whatever, this is for shits & giggles. If I was into spending $10G to win a $20 trophy I'd either go to FED-EX or back to car shows

[kyle.bowker]

First a kvetch, aint no such animal as a factory 59 Morgan +8. The B-O-P motors that eventually grew up to be the 4.6 in Richards car weren't produced in Amurrican cars until 1961.

This is correct. Richard's car is an amalgamation.

[motomoron]

Ithink you must mean "abomination", kyle. I know how you get tripped up on those big words.













Seriously, I got the tour of that car in the parking lot after the final event last year and it's a beautiful piece of work, as opposed to it's owner, who's just a regular one.

I've spent the winter one a complete re-do of my garage shop toward starting on a long-planned Hayabusa Lotus 7 clone. I was truly inspired by Richard's car. That and a trip to the Barber Vinatge Motorsports Museum where there have Loti from a replica of the type 1, 2,6,7,9,10,11, and various other odd or prime numbers up through the early 90's F1 cars...

[ButtDyno]

So... with all this exciting news about track days and schedules, any updates on the index?

[smetzger]

I haven't read all the posts. Just first page and last couple of pages.
Also, I have no experience with the index system used in 2007 or with NASA(sp?) points based system.

1) The SCCA class system has problems especially if you have an 'under prepared' car or you have a car that is not competitive no matter what you do to it. Take my 99 VW Cabrio, it will never be competitive in SCCA; but its not a slow car (Lysholm SC).
But I don't think its difficult to figure out what class a car should be running.

2) I don't like the idea of sandbagging or inconsistency helping someones score.

What if you did multiple ways of calculating indexes? and then gave equal rewards for each system?

[smetzger]

Ok, so I read some more of the thread.

I really don't like the SCCA system. Thats primarily because it strongly favors certain cars over others. But I am going to argue for it...
Its probably the most detailed and yet simple system available.
I don't think it would work to only use some of the SCCA classes, there are just too many wild mods can be done to cars.

I am not sure how many cars in each class there would be, but you could divide things the following different ways....
1) Raw times
2) Everyone PAXed all together as one big group
3) Everyone split into the individual SCCA classes
4) Add a TIRE class, which would be an indexed class for street tires only. Thus allowing comparison for stock cars and people not feeling the need to get R-comps to remain competitive.
5) Add a Novice class, indexed class for people with less then 6? autocrosses. Or some other indicator like win in Novice for the day bumps you out.
6) Add a Ladies class, index class for ladies only.
7) Add a Pro class for the hardcore guys. Indexed again.

My car is SM, but I typically look at G-Stock or STS times for comparison on how I stack up with other drivers. I figure thats where my car would be if it came like this from the factory.

If results were posted using 1 - 3 above with the additional #4-6 classes that would give everyone multiple points of reference. Multiple points of references are good because then you can pick which one fits your car and you as a driver. Plus you can usually find one that doesn't make you feel completely incompetent
Its also nice to know the approximate capability of a car, I have found this to be a good conversation starter.

Things to consider if moving to an SCCA class system...
1) Classed cars should run in the same heat.
2) Cars should be marked with their class
3) People will need help classifying their car. I don't think this will be too hard as I am sure there are a lot of people knowledgable about the SCCA rules.

As for drivers switching cars during an event. How often does this happen? I have only seen this done in one other club and it was during a 24hr long event that allowed you to take many runs that did not count.
What if you had to register and compete in one car, but if you decided to forfeit one of your runs to try someone elses car the time wouldn't count towards your score?

Also, I am a programmer by trade. If help is needed in setting stuff up for doing classes I may be able to help.

[ButtDyno]

FWIW, no matter what happens, I will tabulate unofficial SCCA PAX results on the project:BDR website. So that will be one point of reference The only thing required is that you tell me your class before the event, preferably in electronic form for easy copy pasting. The calculation's pretty easy from there.

john

[kyle.bowker]

I don't think it would work to only use some of the SCCA classes, there are just too many wild mods can be done to cars.

I get the impression that most of our participants (whether they be long time CDC members or first timers) are vehemently against using a multitude of classes that divide, rather than join, participants. We are the antithesis to SCCA and that is what has brought us our current popularity. We cannot beat the SCCA at their own game.

I am not sure how many cars in each class there would be, but you could divide things the following different ways....
1) Raw times
2) Everyone PAXed all together as one big group
3) Everyone split into the individual SCCA classes
4) Add a TIRE class, which would be an indexed class for street tires only. Thus allowing comparison for stock cars and people not feeling the need to get R-comps to remain competitive.
5) Add a Novice class, indexed class for people with less then 6? autocrosses. Or some other indicator like win in Novice for the day bumps you out.
6) Add a Ladies class, index class for ladies only.
7) Add a Pro class for the hardcore guys. Indexed again.

Honestly, this is asking too much of our event organizers. I understand the desire for lots of bells and whistles from the participants' standpoint, but ultimately I don't think such detailed classifications will yield a significant increase in the amount of enjoyment. Whatever system we employ needs to be relatively streamlined so that it is easy to implement and manage.

My car is SM, but I typically look at G-Stock or STS times for comparison on how I stack up with other drivers. I figure thats where my car would be if it came like this from the factory.

Then according to your preference for a SCCA based system you should be in SM and suffer because you chose to install a bolt-on power adder without preparing the rest of your car to the limit of the rules.

If results were posted using 1 - 3 above with the additional #4-6 classes that would give everyone multiple points of reference. Multiple points of references are good because then you can pick which one fits your car and you as a driver. Plus you can usually find one that doesn't make you feel completely incompetent

Multiple points of reference are nice, but should classifications be about making people feel good? It's truly impossible to level the playing field. The only thing that comes close is a tightly regulated spec-series but even then there are haves and have nots.

Its also nice to know the approximate capability of a car, I have found this to be a good conversation starter.

One can usually size up a competitor's car and it's approximate capability in a few minutes through simple observation. A classification system isn't going to do much to change this ability.

Things to consider if moving to an SCCA class system...
1) Classed cars should run in the same heat.
2) Cars should be marked with their class
3) People will need help classifying their car. I don't think this will be too hard as I am sure there are a lot of people knowledgable about the SCCA rules.

1) Changing heat assignments is a whole 'nother can of worms. In the current system you are assigned to a heat randomly (it's only fair this way). If you can't stay all day long then you do 4 morning runs and leave. If you want to get all 6 runs you do 3AM/3PM. This allows you time to make changes or fix your car if it breaks. It also allows us to easily accommodate "walk ons" and late comers. CDC organizers are not interested in offering multiple tech sessions and course walk-throughs because the payout is low compared to the significant increase in time and effort.

2) No big deal but if everyone in the same heat is running the same class what's the difference? The only reason cars have any markings at all is to help CDC organizers at the time keeping booth. All we need is a car number to ID you.

3) I believe the burden should be on the participant. Unless you want to volunteer to be the classification coordinator at each of the 14+ auto-x events we plan to host in 2008?

As for drivers switching cars during an event. How often does this happen?

This happens frequently at every single CDC event. It is one of the great things that separates us from the crowd. CDC events are all about having fun. If something doesn't significantly increase the amount of fun being had then we shouldn't be doing that. Rules for the sake of rules is for the SCCA, not CDC.

What if you had to register and compete in one car, but if you decided to forfeit one of your runs to try someone elses car the time wouldn't count towards your score?

Now you begin to understand the complexity that we as CDC organizers face when trying to implement any scorekeeping system that goes beyond raw time.

Also, I am a programmer by trade. If help is needed in setting stuff up for doing classes I may be able to help.

Thank you for the offer. We do need some programming help to integrate all our IT functions: e-mail notification, event reservation, event registration, timekeeping, scorekeeping, and results reporting. PM me if you're seriously interested. It's going to be a lot of work.

[ButtDyno]

I get the impression that most of our participants (whether they be long time CDC members or first timers) are vehemently against using a multitude of classes that divide, rather than join, participants. We are the antithesis to SCCA and that is what has brought us our current popularity. We cannot beat the SCCA at their own game.

Cumberland uses SCCA classes, and still runs very laid back events. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain, and they have a similar number of drivers-per-day.

One other thing... if someone switches cars and their results are a bit off, I don't think it's a big deal. We are not doing this for trophies

edit: oh yeah, I have PHP skillz and the like too and would be happy to do what I can in that realm.

john

[kyle.bowker]

One other thing... if someone switches cars and their results are a bit off, I don't think it's a big deal. We are not doing this for trophies

Actually, several people have said that they wouldn't mind so much about the sandbagging or what index system we used if it weren't for the totally awesome trophies and season passes we give away as prizes. So remove the prizes and you remove the need for scorekeeping, etc. But then that removes what many people believe to be a critical aspect to auto-x. One of the biggest challenges to CDC season championship is the fact there is only 1 overall winner as opposed to winners in each and every class a la SCCA.

[ButtDyno]

I thought there was only one trophy/prize - driver of the year - the thing Mike won last year. Am I wrong?

[kyle.bowker]

There is more than 1 prize awarded. Mike is 2007 season champion but CDC recognizes members for a variety of accomplishments.

[ButtDyno]

What are the other ones?

[kyle.bowker]

Top 5 in season championship and FTD for each event.

[smetzger]

Your points are well taken and I can't refute any of the ones about the atmosphere, especially since I haven't been to any of your events

Honestly, this is asking too much of our event organizers. I understand the desire for lots of bells and whistles from the participants' standpoint, but ultimately I don't think such detailed classifications will yield a significant increase in the amount of enjoyment. Whatever system we employ needs to be relatively streamlined so that it is easy to implement and manage.

It looks complex, but is not really. All you need is the cars class and the associated index. Then you can calulate adjusted time and sort and group however you want.

My car is SM, but I typically look at G-Stock or STS times for comparison on how I stack up with other drivers. I figure thats where my car would be if it came like this from the factory.

Then according to your preference for a SCCA based system you should be in SM and suffer because you chose to install a bolt-on power adder without preparing the rest of your car to the limit of the rules.

Even if I prepped my car to the limit of the rules in SM it still would not be competitive. Anything I do to my car someone could do the same thing to a MkI Rabbit or Scirroco that weighs 1/2 as much. That's not even taking into account for the maxed out BMWs, Camaros and WRXs.

But I recognize that coming up with an index system is not easy. The SCCA system has its faults but it is a system that has been thought out and tested and easy to implement.