09/19 Summit Point

[awptickes]

Weighted times don't tell the whole story.

If you can beat someone in a "better" car, with your "slower" car, then you're doing pretty well. It's about the driver, not the car.

[awptickes]

My (relatively few this time) pictures are in the pool.

I noticed that I have some wheel-lift in a couple photos..... I need to be smoother.

[evolicious]

^ Wheel lift off has a little be to do with smoothness, bur more so suspension set up. You can't push the the car to the limits and have no wheel lift off- that means you're aren't pushing the car to the limit. Those pics tell you that you are pushing the car the limit and the only way to remedy that "symptom" is to do suspension work. I think it may be time for a suspension upgrade Good job on achieving that mark. That let's you know that you are improving in your diving skill and are pushing the car to the limit. It will get to the point where you are a better driver than the car- takes a while- but can be done. Keep it up. I personally have noticed a nice gain in your skill from the first event you attended to this last one. It seems you have found the cars limits/boundaries. Good job- that's what this is all about right?

[draxcaliber]

when i look at the results, i really focus on what other similar front wheel drive cars that are close to my cars weight. so i look at more recent model honda civics, acura integras/rsx, mazda3 and mazdaspeed3, ford focus svt etc. my car is considerably modified for better handling and power, so i should beat most of them, especially the showroom stock ones.

then i look at what other cars beat me, and i try to figure if what cars beat mine, and i try to remember which ones they were, and figure if that car should have beat me or not. obviously i shouldn't sweat losing to the corbras, or the suxass, and the purpose built older honda civics. if i'm close to some cars that have more capable drivetrains, like the evo's, wrx's and sti's, i'm very pleased. and then happier by beating cars like those. then i look at what cars i beat, i should be well ahead of some of the older slower less sporty cars, or the heavier more luxury oriented cars, or cars that are maybe just too powerful for such a tight course.

so looking at this weeks results. i'm the 3rd fasted FF car there, which is pretty good. losing to a 95 honda civic isn't so bad since that car is 10 years older than my scion, and probably considerably smaller and lighter than my car. and then the RSX type-s also beat me. the only thing that bothers me is not that they were faster than me, but that they were nearly 2 seconds faster than me, which means that i am still losing alot of time somewhere and i need to work on it because my car should be one of the more capable front wheel drive cars there. but i am happy that i beat a lot of other considerably better cars than my lowly tc.

[ButtDyno]

You can't push the the car to the limits and have no wheel lift off- that means you're aren't pushing the car to the limit.

Or that you have plenty of suspension travel. (this is not mutually exclusive with having a lot of roll stiffness)

[wrathe74]

so looking at this weeks results. i'm the 3rd fasted FF car there, which is pretty good. losing to a 95 honda civic isn't so bad since that car is 10 years older than my scion, and probably considerably smaller and lighter than my car. and then the RSX type-s also beat me. the only thing that bothers me is not that they were faster than me, but that they were nearly 2 seconds faster than me, which means that i am still losing alot of time somewhere and i need to work on it because my car should be one of the more capable front wheel drive cars there. but i am happy that i beat a lot of other considerably better cars than my lowly tc.

AJ's civic is setup very nice, and he is a really good, really smooth driver. If you ever get a chance to ride with him, you'll be amazed at how controlled that car feels thru the entire course. AJ drove my RSX and was faster in it then I was...at least, up until last weekend

But I agree...look at other cars that match your cars potential and with similar drivetrains/setups. That will give you a fairly good baseline...once you got that you can gauge how well your doing over time.

For me, it has been AJ and some others at SCCA. AJ, Francois, Danny, Edwin,Brian...and many others have also been there to answer my questions (and I still have tons of them). Finally I also focus on improving 1 or 2 things at each event...so it could be working on how to drive a certain line, or as in the case of SP...pushing my cars' tail around a corner harder than I would at Bowie or Frederick, so that I can predict my oversteer more.

Finally, don't feel intimidated about talking to others and finding out what they got going on, ask questions...for the most part everyone at the club is very good about telling you what they've done, how they drive, how they look at the course, etc.

[drakedeming]

This is hitting on my point on my previous post. Those who only have the resources(be it cash or whatever) to modify themselves as drivers have no way of ever truly competing; in CDC at least...

I kinda disagree with this, although CDC is not really about competition as much as other clubs I have a very minimal amount of money into my car and I appear to be sitting in about 4th or 5th place for the season when you drop low scores. Of course my car is an EVO and the minimal amount that I have in it is 2.5k for power mods. I have no suspension set up aside from 150$ springs and I am out there running good times.

[BugBomb]

In it's initial form, the SUXASS was a $5K project car and probably 2 seconds slower (at most) than it's current state.

[BCAM]

when i look at the results, i really focus on what other similar front wheel drive cars that are close to my cars weight. so i look at more recent model honda civics, acura integras/rsx, mazda3 and mazdaspeed3, ford focus svt etc. my car is considerably modified for better handling and power, so i should beat most of them, especially the showroom stock ones.

then i look at what other cars beat me, and i try to figure if what cars beat mine, and i try to remember which ones they were, and figure if that car should have beat me or not. obviously i shouldn't sweat losing to the corbras, or the suxass, and the purpose built older honda civics. if i'm close to some cars that have more capable drivetrains, like the evo's, wrx's and sti's, i'm very pleased. and then happier by beating cars like those. then i look at what cars i beat, i should be well ahead of some of the older slower less sporty cars, or the heavier more luxury oriented cars, or cars that are maybe just too powerful for such a tight course.

so looking at this weeks results. i'm the 3rd fasted FF car there, which is pretty good. losing to a 95 honda civic isn't so bad since that car is 10 years older than my scion, and probably considerably smaller and lighter than my car. and then the RSX type-s also beat me. the only thing that bothers me is not that they were faster than me, but that they were nearly 2 seconds faster than me, which means that i am still losing alot of time somewhere and i need to work on it because my car should be one of the more capable front wheel drive cars there. but i am happy that i beat a lot of other considerably better cars than my lowly tc.

You guys all have great attitudes. I really appreciate your outlook. You keep your perspective relative and allow yourself to improve. It's a shame that the reward system for this competition (since this is a season long competition with monetary prizes) is structured to benefit only the most highly modified cars (making the assumption the driver is decent). As several of you have stated, you feel good about what you've done and how you have improved relative to the faster cars. As you've indirectly suggested drax, you should get a trophy and a few free CDC passes if you placed 3rd overall in FF for the season.

I love cars like the Fit. My brother races (casually) a lsx 240sx. He recently drove roebling road in GA in the novice class. His instructor had a Yaris racecar with something like ~100whp and a well prepped suspension. The car was, of course, out pacing many much more powerful cars to include my brothers. Awesome.

[echan]

It's a shame that the reward system for this competition (since this is a season long competition with monetary prizes) is structured to benefit only the most highly modified cars (making the assumption the driver is decent).

Some of the organizers and I played an informal "game" of trying to guess the next car's time with the one closest to the time to win. I thought it would be fun to play for the spectators, where we have a bunch of those plastic flip boards with the black backing underneath (I think they car call magic boards). I also think it would offer another way to meet and socialize with other club members. We would need one person to keep track during the heat who got the most "wins" and we would give them a coupon (either a free pass or $10 or $15 coupon). We would do it for all the afternoon heats for both A and B (a total of 8 coupons). I even bought a bunch of boards but we never have time to use them.

Another variant (Morans had this idea a couple years ago) would be for the driver to guess one of their runs. The closest person to thier time would get a prize (kind of like bracket racing). The only problem would be the logistics.

If anyone wants to try to start up either of these types of rewards, the club can probably provide the coupons.

[BCAM]

I really like the plastic flip board idea. Quite a unique idea.

[kyle.bowker]

It's a shame that the reward system for this competition (since this is a season long competition with monetary prizes) is structured to benefit only the most highly modified cars (making the assumption the driver is decent).

Your point has been discussed many times over the past years with heated debate amongst the club members. At the end of the day the issue basically boils down to following questions: why do people auto-x in the first place?; what, if any, reward should participants be eligible to receive? ; and how is the "winner" determined? Without making a class for each individual there is no way to have parity. No matter what you drive racing costs money, plain and simple, and in any form of motorsports the people with the most resources have the upper hand whether that be ALMS or Spec Miata. As someone said earlier, even in SCCA there are the "it" cars and the "also rans" for any given class. You make your choice and you take your lumps. And even in stock classes people can pour lots of money into their car optimizing it within the rules - bizzare factory configurations, expensive shock absorbers, race alignments, r-comps (frequently replaced to stay most competitive).

So which would you rather have? 50 classes where you're the top finisher and win an award for being 1st place out of 1? Or a loose, relaxed, run what you brung event that isn't uptight about classifications and allowable mods and protests? We have reduced the value of the awards over the years to appease those who argue that the index system is unfair (whether the earlier driver based index or the current weight/hp/tire index). The award system is basically an incentive for people to show up regularly. And there are many ways to skin a cat. I'm certain you could build a Locost or a GRM $2009 Challenge type car that could be very competitive and if you brought a Lotus Exige S out that was otherwise stock besides a set of race tires I imagine it would do quite well. But the best auto-x car probably is a crappy street car. Compromise is inherent. I think it's pretty amazing when a little economy hatchback driven by Brian K. can best a ground pounding, chest thumping Cobra with a mighty V8 under the hood and 315 width Hoosiers all around. Anyways, we're all just doing this for fun and to have a laugh, right?

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

when i look at the results, i really focus on what other similar front wheel drive cars that are close to my cars weight. so i look at more recent model honda civics, acura integras/rsx, mazda3 and mazdaspeed3, ford focus svt etc. my car is considerably modified for better handling and power, so i should beat most of them, especially the showroom stock ones.

then i look at what other cars beat me, and i try to figure if what cars beat mine, and i try to remember which ones they were, and figure if that car should have beat me or not. obviously i shouldn't sweat losing to the corbras, or the suxass, and the purpose built older honda civics. if i'm close to some cars that have more capable drivetrains, like the evo's, wrx's and sti's, i'm very pleased. and then happier by beating cars like those. then i look at what cars i beat, i should be well ahead of some of the older slower less sporty cars, or the heavier more luxury oriented cars, or cars that are maybe just too powerful for such a tight course.

so looking at this weeks results. i'm the 3rd fasted FF car there, which is pretty good. losing to a 95 honda civic isn't so bad since that car is 10 years older than my scion, and probably considerably smaller and lighter than my car. and then the RSX type-s also beat me. the only thing that bothers me is not that they were faster than me, but that they were nearly 2 seconds faster than me, which means that i am still losing alot of time somewhere and i need to work on it because my car should be one of the more capable front wheel drive cars there. but i am happy that i beat a lot of other considerably better cars than my lowly tc.

It's a bit hard, but def. good, to compare your times with mine and Jason's. Not because out cars might be set up better than yours, but i think we also have a considerable amount of seat time compared to you. Our cars(mine and yours) are a bit different. I have a beefy suspension, sticky street tires, stock original motor with over 200k, and just i/h/e. All I know of your car is that it has a s/c, BFG's, and weights about 500lbs more than mine. Also our experience differs, I'm not sure how long you've been autoxing or how many events you've done but I've been autoxing for almost 4 years with over 60 events, a few schools and dabbled in rallyx and hpde. It's a bit hard to compare if it's your first year but definitely good to keep that bar high. Without a doubt the potential to beat us is there. You still put down some respectable times. I've been telling Jason he could beat me and he finally did, I think most of this year it was always there but maybe this time he really fought for it (congrats again Jason!).

[wrathe74]

It's a bit hard, but def. good, to compare your times with mine and Jason's. Not because out cars might be set up better than yours, but i think we also have a considerable amount of seat time compared to you. Our cars(mine and yours) are a bit different. I have a beefy suspension, sticky street tires, stock original motor with over 200k, and just i/h/e. All I know of your car is that it has a s/c, BFG's, and weights about 500lbs more than mine. Also our experience differs, I'm not sure how long you've been autoxing or how many events you've done but I've been autoxing for almost 4 years with over 60 events, a few schools and dabbled in rallyx and hpde. It's a bit hard to compare if it's your first year but definitely good to keep that bar high. Without a doubt the potential to beat us is there. You still put down some respectable times. I've been telling Jason he could beat me and he finally did, I think most of this year it was always there but maybe this time he really fought for it (congrats again Jason!).

Thanks AJ ... Now comes the even harder part...keeping that lead This Sunday at SCCA will definitely be interesting. Drax, if your not doing anything on Sunday, come to FedEx and catch some rides with us. Were running first heat in afternoon.

I attended Level 1 and Level 2 school this year. It was very much an eye opener.

[BCAM]

Your point has been discussed many times over the past years with heated debate amongst the club members. At the end of the day the issue basically boils down to following questions: why do people auto-x in the first place?; what, if any, reward should participants be eligible to receive? ; and how is the "winner" determined? Without making a class for each individual there is no way to have parity. No matter what you drive racing costs money, plain and simple, and in any form of motorsports the people with the most resources have the upper hand whether that be ALMS or Spec Miata. As someone said earlier, even in SCCA there are the "it" cars and the "also rans" for any given class. You make your choice and you take your lumps. And even in stock classes people can pour lots of money into their car optimizing it within the rules - bizzare factory configurations, expensive shock absorbers, race alignments, r-comps (frequently replaced to stay most competitive).

So which would you rather have? 50 classes where you're the top finisher and win an award for being 1st place out of 1? Or a loose, relaxed, run what you brung event that isn't uptight about classifications and allowable mods and protests? We have reduced the value of the awards over the years to appease those who argue that the index system is unfair (whether the earlier driver based index or the current weight/hp/tire index). The award system is basically an incentive for people to show up regularly. And there are many ways to skin a cat. I'm certain you could build a Locost or a GRM $2009 Challenge type car that could be very competitive and if you brought a Lotus Exige S out that was otherwise stock besides a set of race tires I imagine it would do quite well. But the best auto-x car probably is a crappy street car. Compromise is inherent. I think it's pretty amazing when a little economy hatchback driven by Brian K. can best a ground pounding, chest thumping Cobra with a mighty V8 under the hood and 315 width Hoosiers all around. Anyways, we're all just doing this for fun and to have a laugh, right?

Without making a class for each individual there is no way to have parity.

Your approach is rather pessimistic. Or perhaps i'm just that optimistic. You are comparing CDC to SCCA and therefore your logic is flawed simply by raw numbers/size. Furthermore, b/c this is a small club compared to something like SCCA, cars that are "extreme" in configuration are going to skew the bell curve. I really like the small-bore series. It would be easy to replicate. Maybe we could have Mushroom Cup, Flower Cup, and Star Cup. I'd support it

[wrathe74]

Maybe we could have Mushroom Cup, Flower Cup, and Star Cup. I'd support it

How psychedelic!

[edfooliu]

Just what sort of parity are you looking for? Small bore is in a pretty good place now, but that's just incidental...by design (by the rules) it wouldn't take much at all for someone to bring in an "extreme" car that'll stomp on the series. You could replicate the success it has with a new class, but I don't think you can do it in a way that'll stand up over time as cars/drivers come/go. I'm not sure folks want to have the project of tweaking the ruleset every season. It's just a really difficult problem, and I think as long as everyone is here to have fun, it's not a necessary one to solve.

Drax, if your not doing anything on Sunday, come to FedEx and catch some rides with us. Were running first heat in afternoon.

Somebody take him up on this...FedEx is a lot of fun, and if you want to see good driving in a similar car (albeit less power), the passenger seat is a good place to see it.

Maybe we could have Mushroom Cup, Flower Cup, and Star Cup. I'd support it

I'd also support this, especially on the current, 1.045 index
Come out Sunday if you want to see what I'd bring to Star Cup, 125cc

[BCAM]

Come out Sunday if you want to see what I'd bring to Star Cup, 125cc

dude, i'd love to see that. especially if you dress up as toad

This is a hard goal to attain and fun should always be the priority. However, I believe, much like Ed suggested with the flipboards that there are easy and fun solutions. You can't think of it in terms of SCCA. Have to think about what CDC can do I'm new here though so I gonna step back behind the curtain now hehe

[draxcaliber]

i've autocrossed for about 3 years now, but the past couple years i only competed in a few events here and there when i could get a day off to go, this is the first season i've competed in nearly every event.

i said i was 3rd fastest front wheel drive car at this past event, but the events where some of the better prepared older honda civics are at, my podium finish quickly becomes an "also ran". i also get disapointed at myself when a last generation honda accord v6 coupe that appears to be lowered edges out my best times since i figure that bigger more powerful engine should make it understeer more than my car, and i should also be a bit lighter than it.

as far as my suspension goes, i have trd shocks and struts with trd lowering springs, hotchkis front and rear sway bars (front softest, rear stiffest), poly urethane suspension bushings all around, poly motor mounts, light weight flywheel, with a trd/quaife lsd. SS brake lines, motul DOT4 brake fluid, stoptech slotted rotors and axxis ultimate pads, oh, and a strut tower brace, but on my car that is more for looks since the strut towers are so close to the firewall. so my suspension is pretty beefy, biggest problem i have is my alignment is just at the factory spec, which isn't very aggressive at all. lastly, it took me a while, but i had to get used to my BFG tires i bought from mehr for a great deal. my first set of summer tires, i was used to all season tires so much that i count on how and when they break loose and let me slide, the BFG's have more grip, but they had very little communication as to when they were about to break loose, and once they did, it was too late to recover, but now i'm pretty familiar with them and have gotten better. i'm debating whether or not i'll buy them again when they wear out, but i guess it will be more down to whats out when they do.

i would love to come on sunday, but this turbo didn't pay for itself, so i can't really take any days off in the near future. gotta pay for all the parts and installation, but i'll be at the next event unless the car isn't running right or something *knocks on wood*

[ferris]

I like the "Guess your time" game.


We could have one more worker at the start line with clip board and write down the drivers guessed time for the 3rd run in the morning.

This does give the organizers something else to compile, but doing one run per person might not be too terrible.

I'm sure Ed O can complie all the data while he is working the grill ... how hard is it to cook hot dogs anyway

[wrathe74]

i said i was 3rd fastest front wheel drive car at this past event, but the events where some of the better prepared older honda civics are at, my podium finish quickly becomes an "also ran". i also get disapointed at myself when a last generation honda accord v6 coupe that appears to be lowered edges out my best times since i figure that bigger more powerful engine should make it understeer more than my car, and i should also be a bit lighter than it.

I know its hard to do, but try not to get too bogged down by comparing to others...use us only as a gauge for yourself. I was doing the same thing earlier this year, and it only made more frustrated. Now that i have re-evaluated my thinking, I'm driving better.

I won't make it to the Bowie event for CDC, however I will be at the next SP event. Ride along, heck you can even drive my car if you want...if you feel that will give you better feedback on how your doing. My car is heavier than yours (i believe min is @ ~2700lbs ), and I'm still running stock shocks in the front.

I have ground controls, custom spring rates, Rear Koni adjustable shocks, a 32mm rear ASR swaybar, front 12mm swaybar, front camber bolts, and a CAI. I've also done my own alignment with a bit of toe-out, and recently upgraded to Kumho XS's. No engine or exhaust upgrades.

[draxcaliber]

thanks, i'll ride along with you if we're in different heats. but my tc is heavier than the RSX, the tc weighs in at 2900 pounds, and since the roof is made out of glass, the center of gravity is higher than it would be if it were a conventional roof, but that is part of what makes the car SOOO COOL!!! lol

[wrathe74]

thanks, i'll ride along with you if we're in different heats. but my tc is heavier than the RSX, the tc weighs in at 2900 pounds, and since the roof is made out of glass, the center of gravity is higher than it would be if it were a conventional roof, but that is part of what makes the car SOOO COOL!!! lol

Didn't realize the roof was made of glass! Cool. With you and me in the car, my car should be about the same weight. (I am ~203lbs -- working on getting that down)

[dannykao]

I don't think you can mod the Evo cheaply, but this is what's in my car after my co-driver set up me straight:

Buschur Stage 1 exhaust setup new - $1400.
Tune and dyno, air/fuel mixture only, no boost - $350.

That's it for the power.

Used Ohlins Sportline single adjustable with camber plates - $1100.
Springs - $280.
Shock Dyno and revalved - $550.
24mm Hallow rear Sway with links - $200.
Cheap ebay front and rear sway (used) - $100

That's it for the suspension.

Countless hours of alignment adjustment and seat time - free.
Over 130 events in the last three years with the car/kart - $10,000
Got to know at least 400 new friends from autocrossing - priceless.

I don't think you would need to spend anything more than that. Afterall, if you are running a street tire class, the limitation is always on the tire. There is no reason to put more power that the tires can't handle.

Unless you are Sal DiPompo (look him up, he is the FMod National Champion in his second year of autocrossing, and he won in a car that he never drove before, truly amazing), autocross is a "time" sports - you have to do the time to get good and there is no magic to it.

DC, AI, CDC, Philly, Cumberland and others all have their Pros and Cons. I won't change a thing that CDC does to run the events; and I think guess the time and mirrors at the stage line are both fantastic ideas. JMHO.

[draxcaliber]

so what was the full story with that poor turbocharged celica? blown turbo? blown head gasket? catastrophic failure? i was surprised people didn't snap more pictures when he blanketed the course in smoke!