09/19 Summit Point

[BCAM]

Thanks for the suggestions Danny. We will have to chat at the next SP event.

[evolicious]

My only gripe about the SCCA classes, is that you basically have to build your car around those rules to be competitive. I want to hook up my car the way I want to, not to a rule book. If I were to do an SCCA event, I would be categorized in the class that is one below the max, just because I have cams in my car and 2 piece rotors. I only have those two things that would put me in that class and in order to be competitive against all the others, I would have to do so much more to my car to level the playing field. Of course the driver comes into play, but there's only so much a driver can do with "inferior" equipment.
That's why I love the CDC, I can do what I want to my car, test my driving skills, and have fun. I will never expect to get FTD, especially with the cobras running, but I look at similar cars and their times. My goals are to be with or beat the other Evo's, WRX's, or Sti's. I know I can't beat the purpose built civics or cobra's, and that's OK. Hell, even if any other car trumps me- kudos to them and their driving. I think it's cool to see somewhat normal car out there, just running their asses off, going for that ultimate lap. I think it's more impressive to see a "lesser capable" car beat you, just because the driver is truly awesome, and not due to the car being more "prepared" than yours.

On a side note, I really hope we continue to run at SP. I am willing to pay the extra $10 or even $20 to run there. That venue is a very good test of driver adaptability to surface changes and control of braking points. Not to mention, it's nice to go watch something else while your waiting for your second session.

[awptickes]

^ Wheel lift off has a little be to do with smoothness, bur more so suspension set up. You can't push the the car to the limits and have no wheel lift off- that means you're aren't pushing the car to the limit. Those pics tell you that you are pushing the car the limit and the only way to remedy that "symptom" is to do suspension work. I think it may be time for a suspension upgrade Good job on achieving that mark. That let's you know that you are improving in your diving skill and are pushing the car to the limit. It will get to the point where you are a better driver than the car- takes a while- but can be done. Keep it up. I personally have noticed a nice gain in your skill from the first event you attended to this last one. It seems you have found the cars limits/boundaries. Good job- that's what this is all about right?

When I first started autocrossing this car, I had 2200 miles on it, and it was bone stock with some really crummy all-season tires. I've got a bit of suspension work, unfortunately I don't quite know the limits yet. The suspension work is about all I'd be willing to put on a car that I use as a daily. I've got a good handle on the limits of the tires, and I know where the top of the traction curve is, but I've still got to get the balance, then I'll improve a lot more. I've been doing a bit of reading (just a couple books) and practicing on the street (as much as legally possible). I mean, when a curve says 45mph, why not take it at exactly 45mph?

I don't think it's a problem when I get the wheel lift, I just need to be a lot smoother while still at the top of the traction curve. My biggest concern right now is braking, I've gotta get the driver-side under control. Thanks for the complement, I hope to get a lot better by the end of the season.

I have a lot more pictures of the smoking Celica.

[awptickes]

His instructor had a Yaris racecar with something like ~100whp and a well prepped suspension. The car was, of course, out pacing many much more powerful cars to include my brothers. Awesome.

Yeah, this is what I'm planning.

[evolicious]

bring it on

[draxcaliber]

yeah, i was at a scion autocross in newark delaware, and the course was really tight and kinked and my might supercharged tc (225 whp) by a tiny little xA (88 whp), the course was very tight, it was a school bus loading/unloading dock at an elementary school. there was just nowhere for me to put down my power and crush the weaker cars.

[evolicious]

Of course there are tighter courses which favor the smaller/nimble cars-look at the results from the first VA autox. Completely different form the norm. There's nothing you can do about it, except suck it up, and deal with it....not much fun IMO. But that's how the ball rolls, and you gotta deal with it. As the Stones said "you can't always get what you want". I know on that course, my car felt like a boat, and I have never had that feeling before. But the challenge of getting it down and the rhythm of the course was what kept me going.
The shoe's on the other foot at SP. I'm sure those guys are thinking the same way about the Sp course as we are about the VA courses. Look at it as an equalizer. Show the strengths of some cars and the weaknesses of others. That's why the CDC is the perfect venue- 17 races total, each with their own characteristics.
I guess the strategy is to optimize on your favorite courses and not do "so" bad at the others.
If you can figure out/perfect your downfalls on those courses that don't agree with your car- that's where you're learning the most- albeit frustrating.

[ButtDyno]

So which would you rather have? 50 classes where you're the top finisher and win an award for being 1st place out of 1? Or a loose, relaxed, run what you brung event that isn't uptight about classifications and allowable mods and protests?

I don't really see the supposed animosity towards SCCA displayed anywhere on this forum and I never have.

I mean, seriously, I have been going to Fedex since 2003 and I can't think of a *single* protest that actually happened. Dan Lee had someone whine about his aftermarket brakes in STS (not helping him) and rollbar (actually legal in stock) once, but still was never protested. And that guy was a huge whiner. Meanwhile the other 249 people every event seem to manage just fine. Not to mention everyone at Cumberland.

Protests really only happen at national events where contingency $$ is on the line and only if you are beating lots of people. And one would expect people to sorta care about the rules when money is involved cuz cheating to win money isn't cool. But this nonsense about uptightness and protesting should stop. It is not based in fact.

[draxcaliber]

talking with the guy who has the corvette z06 who competes usually at the woodbridge event, he said the SCCA autocrosses are only as competitive as you make them. and while people compete in difference classes, and some people do or don't follow the rules, he says people only really care if you start winning your class, alot, and by a considerably margin.

cuz lets face it. you can't tell by looking at my tc that it has a light weight flywheel, or an LSD, or axxis ultimate brake pads really. or if i bored my engine from a 2.4 liter to a 2.7 liter. etc. you can see if a car is lowered, sway bars, upsized brakes, wider r-compound tires and a turbo or supercharger, and hear/see exhaust. but the rest is on the honor system kinda.

reading an old car and driver magazine where they competed with several other car magazines in this honda acura RSX challenge where each magazine was given an RSX type-s to modify. i learned a very interesting phrase that i feel is fairly valid "in racing, there are two kinds of people, cheaters and losers".

[dannykao]

Protest costs money at SCCA. Do you really want to pay $25 or $50 to maybe win a magnet?

At this year's Nationals, the winning STU car left the impound area for 15 minutes and returned later for the sniff test; and there is also some illegal spacers installed to give the downpipe more clearance. People talked about protesting, but never did.

People generally don't protest at most of the events; but in the big events, if you get caught cheating, you will carry the cheater reputation for a LONG time.... I think someone cheated 16+ years ago at the SCCA nationals, and still being labelled as a cheater today.

I think the above case is harsh, but rules are rules. John is right; you can boost to 27 PSI and run STU and no one really cares; but if you start winning then it's different story.

[edfooliu]

Nobody's protested Jason for an illegal clutch in ST... again the key is that class legality is policed by competitors--you could run anything until you're protested. At the end of the day, most SCCAers are there to have fun, too...there's no motivation for people to be uptight about minor things that don't really give you a big advantage (e.g. clutches, brakes, etc). It's only when there are actual stakes (like contingency money), or if you do something silly like run r-comps in a street tire class...

And having to prep a car to the rules to be competitive... that's just the deal you make with the devil for a greater degree of parity within a class. You can (and people do at length) debate exactly what the restrictions are, but without a strict system of rules and restrictions, you can't have a (more) level playing field. There will always be people who take the competition more seriously then you--and there will always be people in that set that will spend whatever it takes to the maximum allowance of the rules. It's exactly the same with a looser classing system, e.g.- CDC's indexing system and its friendliness to 'extreme' cars. SCCA classes don't prevent the big spenders from buying their way into a mechanical advantage--it just limits how big that advantage can be, and in the long run, that keeps it a drivers' game more than anything else IMO.

[wrathe74]

Nobody's protested Jason for an illegal clutch in ST...

I also told everyone in ST that I had an illegal clutch from the beginning and a light flywheel. I've never tried to hide what I have done to the car. Being that the guys in ST are cool with it, they told me I could run with them.

[draxcaliber]

oh, thats why you're beating me! ILLEGAL CLUTCH EHHH! i'll just have to let the authority know about this! LMAO

how can a clutch be illegal? what kind of edge could it give you in an autocross? since all it does is hold power and transmit power and not actually create any? lol

[wrathe74]

oh, thats why you're beating me! ILLEGAL CLUTCH EHHH! i'll just have to let the authority know about this! LMAO

how can a clutch be illegal? what kind of edge could it give you in an autocross? since all it does is hold power and transmit power and not actually create any? lol

2009 SCCA Rulebook

14. STREET TOURING CATEGORY
The Street Touring category of vehicle modifications is meant to fit between the current Stock and Street Prepared categories. This category provides a natural competition outlet for auto enthusiasts using affordable sports cars and sedans equipped with common suspension, engine, and appearance modifications which are fully legal and compatible with street use anywhere in the country

14.10 ENGINE AND DRIVETRAIN
Engine and transmission must remain unmodified, including emissions equipment, except as noted below.

.... and since there is no exception noted below...it is not "legal".It could be argued that the less "rotational mass" means more power, and the clutch allows faster launches off the line.

[draxcaliber]

well, i don't know, looking at that, a clutch is a wear and tear item and inevitably will be replaced in a car that competes in motorsports (a clutch should last the life of the car when driven properly), so when it needs replacing, are you limited to OEM or aftermarket OEM replacement parts? why penalize participants who figure that instead of replacing the clutch is the same clutch that'll keep wearing out when they can use a stronger clutch that'll last longer and save them money? it is about affordability really. i think when they say not modding the transmission, that would be more about gearing, and the final drive ratio which you could change to give you a real advantage over the competition. the flywheel, yeah, less rotational difference, more power to the wheels, as well as faster revving for rev match shifting.

but that is like saying you have to replace your tires with the exact manufacturer and model tires the car came with and saying you can't put on a more performance oriented tire (not talking about r-comps but OEM tires in my experience are rediculously over priced and have no grip).

[evolicious]

^ I agree half way with you. My stock tires had tons of grip, but extremely expensive. Over $300 each. No thanks.

[drakedeming]

^ my stock EVO tires were garbage

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

well, i don't know, looking at that, a clutch is a wear and tear item and inevitably will be replaced in a car that competes in motorsports (a clutch should last the life of the car when driven properly), so when it needs replacing, are you limited to OEM or aftermarket OEM replacement parts? why penalize participants who figure that instead of replacing the clutch is the same clutch that'll keep wearing out when they can use a stronger clutch that'll last longer and save them money? it is about affordability really. i think when they say not modding the transmission, that would be more about gearing, and the final drive ratio which you could change to give you a real advantage over the competition. the flywheel, yeah, less rotational difference, more power to the wheels, as well as faster revving for rev match shifting.

but that is like saying you have to replace your tires with the exact manufacturer and model tires the car came with and saying you can't put on a more performance oriented tire (not talking about r-comps but OEM tires in my experience are rediculously over priced and have no grip).

Unfortunately, SCCA doesn't care about wear and tear on items lol. It is silly to not allow aftermarket clutch/flywheel in Street Touring esp since most of the ST cars are not making big power so a heavy duty clutch wont do much, or in most cases, give any advantage. As for a flywheel, a little lighter could get maybe a couple hp but that's about it. Normally don't down shift in autox so can't get an advantage there.

But like Jason mentioned, no body really cares for a mod so minor like that(regionally at least). Only time you might see people get their panties in a bunch and possibly protest would be for nationals.

[dannykao]

Welcome to the world of Mitsubishi Evolution ownership.

As some of your know the weakest point of the Evo is the clutch. I think Mitsubishi made the clutch weak to protect the transmission, so you don't get tranny blowouts like the STI.

My car has 16K miles. I had 13K miles from the first 6 months commuting and a few autocrosses. After the 1st year, my clutch died and when it was opened, the clutch was in pieces and flywheel is all torched. I had to put an OEM replacement in, and that lasted another 2500 miles. I am in my 3rd clutch now and that was put in in the beginning of the year with less than 1000 miles on it.

My Evo had three seasons of ProSolos. This year the car only been to one ProSolo; but the previous years it has seen about 6 Pro events. Altogether including practice launches, we probably launched the car 96 times per year. (5800rpm dump the clutch launch, not autox launches) That's the stock clutch's limit for us.

I don't think there is any performance advantage on a more stout clutch. The lighter flywheel will help reduce the engine rotating mass, so there should be a power advantage. But then again you can shave the stock flywheel to minimum factory specs and conform to the rules, so it really isn't an advantage to someone who fully prep their car in stock class.

Some of us tried to get the clutch replacement rules changed, but no cigar. But if you run an aftermarket clutch, you are definitely going to get protested at the Nationals if you trophy.

It is a bogus rule; but it is what is is I guess.

As far as stock Evo tires, I thought the stock Yokos are pretty sticky, and they wear pretty good, but extremely pricey, and a little undersized. Yokohama's tend to have longer tire life because the treadwear is higher, and they handle heat pretty well. We have been running Star Specs for almost 1 1/2 year now and for the money and performance, it's hard to beat. I believe the top 4 STU cars and top 7/10 this year at the Nationals are all on Star Specs despite the Bridgestone contingency. All high performance tires are close, but for $200+ less per set, I would get Star Specs over any other ones.

Plus the Bridgestone guys wouldn't even give me a free T-shirt at the Nationals, so I am bad mouthing them.

[eage8]

well, i don't know, looking at that, a clutch is a wear and tear item and inevitably will be replaced in a car that competes in motorsports (a clutch should last the life of the car when driven properly), so when it needs replacing, are you limited to OEM or aftermarket OEM replacement parts? why penalize participants who figure that instead of replacing the clutch is the same clutch that'll keep wearing out when they can use a stronger clutch that'll last longer and save them money? it is about affordability really. i think when they say not modding the transmission, that would be more about gearing, and the final drive ratio which you could change to give you a real advantage over the competition. the flywheel, yeah, less rotational difference, more power to the wheels, as well as faster revving for rev match shifting.

but that is like saying you have to replace your tires with the exact manufacturer and model tires the car came with and saying you can't put on a more performance oriented tire (not talking about r-comps but OEM tires in my experience are rediculously over priced and have no grip).

Me and you are in the great land of street mod though, where we don't have to deal with dumb stuff like this

and we also get beat by much faster cars....

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

well, i don't know, looking at that, a clutch is a wear and tear item and inevitably will be replaced in a car that competes in motorsports (a clutch should last the life of the car when driven properly), so when it needs replacing, are you limited to OEM or aftermarket OEM replacement parts? why penalize participants who figure that instead of replacing the clutch is the same clutch that'll keep wearing out when they can use a stronger clutch that'll last longer and save them money? it is about affordability really. i think when they say not modding the transmission, that would be more about gearing, and the final drive ratio which you could change to give you a real advantage over the competition. the flywheel, yeah, less rotational difference, more power to the wheels, as well as faster revving for rev match shifting.

but that is like saying you have to replace your tires with the exact manufacturer and model tires the car came with and saying you can't put on a more performance oriented tire (not talking about r-comps but OEM tires in my experience are rediculously over priced and have no grip).

Me and you are in the great land of street mod though, were we don't have to deal with dumb stuff like this

and we also get beat by much faster cars....

Or you could think about it this way, Brian Karwin is in SM for SCCA events. He already beats just about everyone at CDC events so it wouldn't be any different really lol.

[eage8]

well, i don't know, looking at that, a clutch is a wear and tear item and inevitably will be replaced in a car that competes in motorsports (a clutch should last the life of the car when driven properly), so when it needs replacing, are you limited to OEM or aftermarket OEM replacement parts? why penalize participants who figure that instead of replacing the clutch is the same clutch that'll keep wearing out when they can use a stronger clutch that'll last longer and save them money? it is about affordability really. i think when they say not modding the transmission, that would be more about gearing, and the final drive ratio which you could change to give you a real advantage over the competition. the flywheel, yeah, less rotational difference, more power to the wheels, as well as faster revving for rev match shifting.

but that is like saying you have to replace your tires with the exact manufacturer and model tires the car came with and saying you can't put on a more performance oriented tire (not talking about r-comps but OEM tires in my experience are rediculously over priced and have no grip).

Me and you are in the great land of street mod though, were we don't have to deal with dumb stuff like this

and we also get beat by much faster cars....

Or you could think about it this way, Brian Karwin is in SM for SCCA events. He already beats just about everyone at CDC events so it wouldn't be any different really lol.

well technically I'm in SSM so I'm still good

I just have to make my car faster than the 3-rotor FDs and the Ferrari 430 at nationals and it's smooth sailing...

[ButtDyno]

well, i don't know, looking at that, a clutch is a wear and tear item and inevitably will be replaced in a car that competes in motorsports (a clutch should last the life of the car when driven properly), so when it needs replacing, are you limited to OEM or aftermarket OEM replacement parts?

There's a stock class allowance for that, actually:

Alternate components which are normally expendable and
considered replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings,
seals, gaskets, filters, belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors,
clutch discs, pressure plates, suspension bushings, drivetrain
mounts, etc.) may be used provided they are essentially identical to
the standard parts (e.g. have the same type, size, hardness, weight,
material etc.), are used in the same location, and provide no
performance benefit.

I think you could make an easy case for an aftermarket clutch as long as it was equivalent to the OE one.

(again, assuming you were in a protest situation, which, as stated, does not really happen at local events)

[ButtDyno]

well technically I'm in SSM so I'm still good

I just have to make my car faster than the 3-rotor FDs and the Ferrari 430 at nationals and it's smooth sailing...

Actually the Ferrari was an ASP car It was being run in SSM too just to maximize the number of drivers.

[edfooliu]

well technically I'm in SSM so I'm still good

I just have to make my car faster than the 3-rotor FDs and the Ferrari 430 at nationals and it's smooth sailing...

Actually the Ferrari was an ASP car It was being run in SSM too just to maximize the number of drivers.

ASP...where a friggin Scuderia has the rare distinction of being _underprepared_ for its class...