R-comps in small bore

[eage8]

So I thought I'd bring this up before the season is over and not as many people are on the forum.

I know it's been discussed in the passed and I'm not really sure what the consensus was, but I think it defeats the point of an "affordable series" to allow them, at least to allow them compensated for.

small bore is currently the "miata with r-comps championship"

Me, Denise, and I assume Doug would love to be competitive in small bore, but just don't have the money to (or the skill to want to) move up to r-comps and a second or more likely a third set of wheels. just the 3 of us would double the size of the competitive field in small bore.

Currently most of the people in small bore use the same street tires that we drive around on all summer.

I've heard that there aren't very good tires other than r-comps for a lot of smaller tire sizes for older cars, which is a problem. But I also haven't seen very many of them around recently for some reason...

I think it would be fairly reasonable to apply only the r-comp index to small bore. which would allow people to run r-comps if they want, but still make it affordable for those that don't want to.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to make small bore more fun for more people.

[edfooliu]

As an aside, street tires _can_ be competitive in small bore (see: AJ's and my civic...we both scored small bore wins on small, 195 and 205 section street tires). There are plenty in small sizes (all of them you can find in R15)... Bridgestone RE11, Dunlop Z1, Kumho XS, Toyo R1R... I havent driven the latter two, but Jason is clearly fast on the Kumhos... and IMO the 'stones and dunlops are _very_ close to rcomps.

An affordable series with a diversity of competitive cars, setups, and tires is a very desirable thing. I'm just not sure it's realistic. I'm of the belief that if someone really wanted to win this thing, they could very easily (though perhaps not cheaply) prep a car to the full allowable extent of the rules (currently there are very, very few restrictions) and absolutely own it. The only way to prevent this is to add more explicit restrictions, and this goes down the slippery slope towards the strict, rulebook worship of the SCCA that has its ups and downs.

Even if you only applied an rcomp index, it wouldn't prevent a similar situation from happening. The last time I ran my civic, i drove terribly and finished 4th or 5th in small bore... if we weight the results with the 1.035 rcomp factor, I'd lead by a half second. If a mediocre driver can beat good miata pilots by half a second on a day where he drove poorly on 4 morning runs and with ice cold tires thanks to parking in a damp shade...not sure we want that, either. If we did the same to AJ's most recent small bore showing, he'd crush the field by 2 seconds. To me, those examples are enough to at least suggest that small bore with an rcomp index can turn into a "civic with suspension and street tires" championship--if enough civics with suspension and street tires show up. At that point, you'd need to add an index for suspension as well.

My point is... in a formula-based class, the formula will always favor one 'solution' over another, and there's nothing to prevent people from prepping for that formula except...more rules. That 'problem' will only get more acute as more people and cars enter the class.

I guess my question is... how far do you want to go to create parity within the class? To what extent do we try to make it 'affordable', and to what extent do you want to maintain the casual, 'run what you brung' spirit of the class? Questions without obvious answers (to me) if the class continues to grow because i'm not sure you can equally accommodate all of those.

[eage8]

You also have to take into account that AJ's civic is probably set up better than anyone else's car in small bore. and when you guys won small bore not nearly as many people were running r-comps. Most of the cars racing in small bore are fairly stock to my knowledge except for r-comps.

I don't want to get into penalizing people for every mod they have, because that gets tedious and dumb, but most mods that you do are more or less a 1 time expense, r-comps aren't, you have to by them pretty much ever season, so they're harder to justify. and you have to buy a set of wheels too, so total cost for r-comps is around $1200-1300 which is more than a lot of small bore cars cost...

I've heard people claim that street tires are just as good as r-comps, but it's just not true. this has been discussed several times before, in the last index thread, pretty much everyone said that r-comps did not have enough of a penalty, which is why they increased it to 1.35 this year.

[eage8]

I guess my question is... how far do you want to go to create parity within the class? To what extent do we try to make it 'affordable', and to what extent do you want to maintain the casual, 'run what you brung' spirit of the class? Questions without obvious answers (to me) if the class continues to grow because i'm not sure you can equally accommodate all of those.

To actually answer your question, what I'm proposing (an r-comp multiplier) wouldn't change anyone's ability to qualify for the class, but it would make more of them competitive.

[milkmandan]

Keep the r-comps and run what ya brung. I haven't spent more than $100 on each of the 3 pairs of r-comp takeoffs I've run this year (on 2 diff cars), missed 6 events in a row, never placed better than 4th, and I'm still set for 3rd in the championship. With the amount of points awarded every time out, small fields, and the dropping of the lowest 4 scores, consistency pays off more in the long run.

Plus street tires aren't any fun.

[Dan133]

As one of the beneficiaries of rcomps I don't want to give them up. Rcomps allow me to take a car that is lowered(Ground Controls and Tokico adjustable shocks) and compete with Dave V's car (nicely prepared)and beat him(once). Hell, I even beat AJ (once). My car still has all of the tupperware(SE ground effects package) interior padding, 6disc CD changer, etc. and no mods to the engine or exhaust. I think that to be competitive without Rcomps I would have to start stripping the car and make it less streetable. As it stands the car is more comfortable on the street than before I lowered it. I think that to keep true to the smallbore ethic, as I perceive it, without Rcomps we would have to be very restrictive about weight and suspension mods. On the surface, indexing for rcomps would seem to make sense but I believe we would then find it necessary to index for suspension and weight as well. And this is just inside the smallbore class. Sound familiar?

[Dan133]

Sorry, I was very tired last night. The point is-Yes, what is the point, Dan? The point is that rcomps can be an equalizer for cars that are not specifically prepared for autox use only and are still daily drivers.

[BugBomb]

In my personal opinion:
I doubt the club will make any changes to the SB rules next year regarding r-comps. SB is meant to create a venue of competition for cars that are a little under-classed to compete for raw time or index. In that respect, it is also meant to be simple. The organizers are hesitant to begin indexing the class because it will end up turning into a copy of the index championship (which already accounts for HP). On the other hand, we don't want to ban r-comps outright. SB is a fairly small pool of competitors at the moment, and we wouldn't want it to get any smaller or it becomes less fun for those involved.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

I won Small Bore last year on street tires and the events I've attended this year I've done well, again on street tires. R-Comps should be allowed I think. If you're talking about affordability, anyone can easily get a set of used R-Comps that can last a season for the price of the BStones I have new. If you add an index for R-Comps, just like Ed said, I could easily just continue running my street tires and it there would still be unfair competition as a class. If I decided to run R-Comps, shave off about 1-1.5seconds and I think I'll have a fair lead still. Take into account that any well prepped car with a good driver can distroy in small bore, specifically an older model civic. Any miata on r-comps fitting small bore rules wouldn't stand a chance against a well prepped '89 Civic SI on street tires. As with ANY class, there will be 1 or 2 cars that have an upper hand when prepared. Unfortunatly not every car running can be competitive...

[eage8]

that's exactly my point though AJ, your car is fairly seriously modded compared to all the other cars in small bore and your probably a better driver than most and your not beating almost stock miatas with r-comps by very much. r-comps just serve as a way to distance the the competitors of small bore further apart and make it less fun for most people involved.

I understand what you're saying too mike, but all the cars in small bore are going to have around the same hp and weight anyway, so they index wouldn't really matter.

Apparently I'm the only one who feels this way, so I'm just going to drop it. I got the feeling that a lot of other people didn't like r-comps in small bore either.

[echan]

I understand the concept that we should not allow r compounds in small bore or to give an index to r-compounds. However, the idea of small was to create a series with no indexes, like a minature CanAm series. I realize that r compounds result in better times, but to a slightly less extent so does suspension, weight, tire size, etc.

I've thought about just not allowing r compounds but then what tires are allowable. We might find ourselves making eveyone buy a spec tire, which no body would otherwise buy. In addition, do we want to promote slower times? I am not sure if limiting r compounds would make an overal good or bad effect on the series.

Like last year, we will put the index values for the index series AND the small bore rules up for discussion and vote at the awards lunch at the end of the season (Jan/Feb).

As a side note, I always thought the best way is to start a series, where everyone drives the same car. I've brought this idea up with the organizers, but the cost would be extremely high and no one would really want to loan their car to 20 or more people driving extremely agressively to win a championship. I even thought the club should buy a cheap miata each year and give the car away to the winner at either the end of the season or when the car breaks, which ever comes first. However, how many people want a broken car? Also, the club would have to make sure the car was up to snuff before releasing the car, and we all know that it would cost thousands. I just can't seem to make the numbers work out. So for now, we're stuck with different cars with different tires, different suspension, and different mods.

Ed

[david.valeri]

Here is some food for though...

If we went to all street tires, the best prepped cars would still be running on 10K mile summer only tires. These too require a second set of rims for the winter if your car is your daily. You can score a new set of RA-1s for less than a set of of the high-end Bridgestones. Below are the best prices I found on the Interwebs for some of the best tires (only spent 15 minutes hunting).

Streetable
--------------------

Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec Price 195/55/15: $84.00 for my car, but they only come in a crappy selection of sizes for a small bore series car. I would have to run a 195/55/15 or go to a 16 inch rim.

Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 205/50R15: $124.20

Toyo RA-1 205/50/15: $129.00

Not Streetable
---------------------

Kumho Ecsta V710 205/50/15: ~186

Hoosier A6 205/50/15: ~200

If your picking up a second set of rims anyway, the best prepped cars would look to ditch as much unsprung rotating mass as possible. Sub 10 pound rims, that's $200+ per corner right there with tires not even coming into the equation.

If we took the tires and rims out of the equation, some people may look to spend the money elsewhere. I know I'd love some more power. One could spend a lot of money on engine work and tuning and stay within the limits of small bore. I don't know about you, but I'd love another 20hp. Right there I could spend between 2K and more than I paid for my car.



So I guess my point is that unless it becomes a spec series, some cars will just be better suited. Even if it does become more tightly restricted series, the guys with deeper pockets will likely have better prepared cars. Take a look at http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articl ... s-schmoes/ for some interesting info on how much variance there can be even within a tightly controlled series.

Grassroots Motorsports is slated to run an article "Comparison of R-compound vs. street tires: What's the real difference these days?" next month so we should have some more objective data on how much difference tires make.

Either way, the club should make it known as soon as possible so that we can all get started on preparations for next season. I know some Miata drivers who need to see their dealers local tire suppliers for their next fix set of tires.

[Imprezive_04]

I don't know which side of this argument I am on but I would like to add one thing. I know we like to rip on the SCCA PAX from time to time and I know that not having a factory radio delete plate can knock a car out of a class with SCCA. With that being said they do a pretty good job of getting a large variety of cars with a huge variety in mods into "fair" classes.

Anywho, SCCA disagrees that suspension and weight mods > R-comps.

For example I have an STU prepped STi. Ground controls sleeves, springs, sways, Dunlops, intake, and a STU tune. My index would be .844. A 04 STi on r-comps would be in AS. A note that a stock does allow shocks and a swaybar, but those are allowed in ST too so they cancel out. The AS index is .854.

On a 50 second course:
50*.854=42.7
50*.844=42.2
SCCA says the r-comps are .5 seconds faster

Same is true in small bore classes where a NA miata would be in ES (.829) or with suspension mods and street tires STS(.826).

So SCCA has a lot of data that supports that a miata on r-comps with front shocks and a sway bar is .25 seconds faster than a miata with shocks, springs, sways, lowered 3-4 inches from stock, performance alignment, a megasquirt tune, shaved street tires and tips the scales at 1950Lbs on a 50 second course.

[phranquelynn]

Keep the R comps in small bore.

R comps is just one of many mods you can do in small bore. If you buy used, it could be one of the cheapest mods with the most benefit. I think a good suspension upgrade probably benefits in better times than r comps. So if we eliminate R comps from small bore, do we also eliminate suspension upgrades? Or the many other upgrades that makes one car better than another. Or is there really any way to make it fair for one car to fairly compete against another? Probably not unless you run a spec series. So IMHO, keep the r comps in small bore.

Hint: to be more competitive in small bore or the overall series, come to more events. More seat times equal better results. And more points.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

Hint: to be more competitive in small bore or the overall series, come to more events. More seat times equal better results. And more points.

ding ding ding! half the battle is showing up. I would have had a very good shot at winning the series again this year if I had gone to more events. and of course, seat time>any mod. can't win with r-comps and prepped car if you can't drive right?

[edfooliu]

that's exactly my point though AJ, your car is fairly seriously modded compared to all the other cars in small bore and your probably a better driver than most and your not beating almost stock miatas with r-comps by very much

so...
1) the formula for setting up a SCCA ST class civic is pretty rote, and it's not that involved... unless AJ is packing some special sauce, it's basically higher springrate, shocks to handle those springs, and a fat rear swaybar. The rest is setup--alignment, ride height, and the neverending game of finding exactly the right springrates to use.

2) ...prep up your car better? Is the goal to make low-prep, street tire (which presents a world of classing issues itself given the vast range of performance levels...even 'summer tire' isn't narrow enough) cars competitive with near-stock, r-comp-shod miatas? The index may accomplish this, but that's ALL it would accomplish. As soon as one of those miatas decides to raise its prep level significantly--or as soon as AJ puts on some sticky sticky--we're back to unbalance. The only thing stopping this is the fact that nobody -yet- wants to win badly enough to pay those costs in tires, mods, and driveability to FULLY prep a car within the allowances of the class. The proposed rcomp index may create more balance _now_, but without a host of supplementary rules, it would return to unbalance in a hurry--likely from the unrestricted factor of suspension. Since one of the goals of SB is to keep it simple and light, it doesnt seem worth it to add a rule that 1) only works for the current state of a very open class and 2) could be obsolete very quickly. I mean...what happens when an rcomp-shod miata decides to put on serious suspension (cough Frank cough)?

the real point is... it's always going to cost money to be competitive no matter where that money is spent. the only way around it is to...reduce the desire to be competitive, or make everything spec (after which it ironically becomes more expensive again... see: spec miata, where everyone spends exorbitantly to find the slightest advantage). The former isn't something you can legislate away with rules... it just happens or it doesn't. If it doesn't...then you gotta pay to play.

Alternatively,

Hint: to be more competitive in small bore or the overall series, come to more events. More seat times equal better results. And more points.

Agree x infinity. Seat time is EVERYTHING (but it's poor fodder for offseason forum debates, unlike car prep)... Would also recommend the WDCR SCCA novice schools that Brian Garfield holds... cant count the times I felt I was getting everything out of my car/setup only to watch an instructor take full seconds off and show me just how much potential I hadn't tapped. Cheapest, quickest, and most fun way to get more speed.

Any miata on r-comps fitting small bore rules wouldn't stand a chance against a well prepped '89 Civic SI on street tires.

CSP crushed ST at nationals... winning times were ~4s off on each course. Frank, you may continue upgrading your miata . Interestingly, ST civic vs CS miata was a pretty good matchup...

Same is true in small bore classes where a NA miata would be in ES (.829) or with suspension mods and street tires STS(.826).

I know they calculate PAX based on a large sample of results in different regions, but it still puzzles me a bit that ES and STS didn't get any closer in the new PAX index. On fast courses on top of high grip concrete at Nationals, STS was a few SECONDS faster than ES.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

that's exactly my point though AJ, your car is fairly seriously modded compared to all the other cars in small bore and your probably a better driver than most and your not beating almost stock miatas with r-comps by very much

so...
1) the formula for setting up a SCCA ST class civic is pretty rote, and it's not that involved... unless AJ is packing some special sauce, it's basically higher springrate, shocks to handle those springs, and a fat rear swaybar. The rest is setup--alignment, ride height, and the neverending game of finding exactly the right springrates to use.

2) ...prep up your car better? Is the goal to make low-prep, street tire (which presents a world of classing issues itself given the vast range of performance levels...even 'summer tire' isn't narrow enough) cars competitive with near-stock, r-comp-shod miatas? The index may accomplish this, but that's ALL it would accomplish. As soon as one of those miatas decides to raise its prep level significantly--or as soon as AJ puts on some sticky sticky--we're back to unbalance. The only thing stopping this is the fact that nobody -yet- wants to win badly enough to pay those costs in tires, mods, and driveability to FULLY prep a car within the allowances of the class. The proposed rcomp index may create more balance _now_, but without a host of supplementary rules, it would return to unbalance in a hurry--likely from the unrestricted factor of suspension. Since one of the goals of SB is to keep it simple and light, it doesnt seem worth it to add a rule that 1) only works for the current state of a very open class and 2) could be obsolete very quickly. I mean...what happens when an rcomp-shod miata decides to put on serious suspension (cough Frank cough)?

the real point is... it's always going to cost money to be competitive no matter where that money is spent. the only way around it is to...reduce the desire to be competitive, or make everything spec (after which it ironically becomes more expensive again... see: spec miata, where everyone spends exorbitantly to find the slightest advantage). The former isn't something you can legislate away with rules... it just happens or it doesn't. If it doesn't...then you gotta pay to play.

Any miata on r-comps fitting small bore rules wouldn't stand a chance against a well prepped '89 Civic SI on street tires.

CSP crushed ST at nationals... winning times were ~4s off on each course. Frank, you may continue upgrading your miata . Interestingly, ST civic vs CS miata was a pretty good matchup...

1) not packing any special sauce lol. My car is basically as you described. high rates, matched shocks, semi-fat rear bar, and good street tires. alignment is tweeked a bit but really not much at all. after a couple trys I've found what I liked in spring rates and had the shocks valved for them. height i've been playing with a lot, i think i have it down(hehe). oh and not to mention my motor is very likely producing less hp than stock even with I/H/E(it def. feels slower on the straights than my dads bone stock '99 EX and they are both manual).

2) agreed.

and when I said the miata thing, I was thinking along the lines of something prepped in STS, not crazy CSP cars lol.

[moxnix]

I know they calculate PAX based on a large sample of results in different regions, but it still puzzles me a bit that ES and STS didn't get any closer in the new PAX index. On fast courses on top of high grip concrete at Nationals, STS was a few SECONDS faster than ES.

ES ran in drying conditions at nationals on the second day. STS was dry both days. Looking at only the first day on a 60 second course ES was just under half a second faster.

[edfooliu]

ES ran in drying conditions at nationals on the second day. STS was dry both days. Looking at only the first day on a 60 second course ES was just under half a second faster.

color me unpuzzled, thanks

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

Maybe we should index street tires

My video from Saturday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzBWA4mFIeI

So Fred let me use his 205/50R15 Kumho V710's on Saturday. I wanted to test them out and see the difference between them and my 205/50R15 Bridgestone RE-11's. Ran the Kumhos in the morning and the Bridgestones in the afternoon. My best morning run on the r-comps was 38.3X and my best afternoon run on the street tires was 37.74. Just over half a second faster on the street tires than the r-comps.

I guess I'll start with the r-comps. Some things I noticed immediately and liked about them were initial turn-in was very quick and responsive. Another thing was rotation. Although this probably hurt me more than helped, getting the car to rotate was very easy with these tires. As you can see in the video, my first run was very tail happy. I can tell from these tires that tire pressure can really get the car to act dramatically different, which is nice. Once I had played with the pressures(mainly in the rear), the car did feel more stable and controllable but with still a good amount of oversteer. These are good things I found from running them.

Now the bad. They are not new tires and they easily could have been heat cycled out. I felt like I couldn't find the cars limit on these tires. I could go into the sweeper steady and controlled and then they will let loose real quick. Since these tires need heat, I feel like maybe the CDC courses(esp at HGS) may not be large enough to get real good heat in these tires, esp in only 3 runs.

The street tires. I liked them much more than the r-comps. Although the initial response my not be as good as the r-comps, these tires seem to be much more predictable. I can really feel where these tires are gripping or when they are going to let go. When they do let go, it's not as sudden and you can probably recover quickly. Not only feel but hearing them too. I know I'm over driving if the tires are screaming and with the r-comps, I can't hear anything. They don't need as much heat to get them gripping.

The bad. Like i said, initial response is not as sharp as with r-comps. Adjusting air pressure doesn't seem to have as much of a dramatic effect as the r-comps.

IMO, the street tires can run with the r-comps. I don't think there should be any indexing on the tires for small bore. Although the r-comps I ran would have done better if new(er) and hot, I still managed to put .5 second on them with my street tires, which I think is fairly significant. Oh and as for the possibility of knowing the course better in the afternoon, no not really. I took 4 rides AND drove Andy's M Coupe(which I was only a second faster in my civic and that's the first time ever racing a rwd car and it's stock) in the morning before any of my runs. I had a fair assessment of line and attack when I took my runs.

[eage8]

It was 50 degrees out and you had 3 year old r-comps for the first time. I'd hardly call that a fair comparison.

I was on smaller sized all seasons on Monday and got within .8 seconds of my r-comp time from Saturday. It was simply just too cold for the r-comps

I imagine all of the oversteer you were experiencing was mainly due to the tires not being nearly hot enough. I spun my corolla on my 1st and 4th runs because the rears couldn't get any heat in them.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

It was 50 degrees out and you had 3 year old r-comps for the first time. I'd hardly call that a fair comparison.

I was on smaller sized all seasons on Monday and got within .8 seconds of my r-comp time from Saturday. It was simply just too cold for the r-comps

I imagine all of the oversteer you were experiencing was mainly due to the tires not being nearly hot enough. I spun my corolla on my 1st and 4th runs because the rears couldn't get any heat in them.

Although old, they still have plenty of life left in them from what I saw. The over steer was due to my tire pressures. I ran way to high in the rear the first run then dropped it down. Those pressures with how stiff my rear end is=major over steer.

[dhowell]

I agree with AJ that turn-in was much quicker. I also found that I could brake much better and the car was generally more responsive. Beyond that, I had a bit of trouble gauging where the new limits of my car were, but I think that is mostly lack of skills on my part. I personally was only able to take about 0.6 seconds off my best time on street tires (Kumho Ecsta XS), but my co-driver took about 2 seconds off his best time. Even if these tires are not at their peak, I still think they are an improvement over street tires. Had the weather been warmer, I think the difference would have been much more noticeable. Either way, it was an interesting experience.

Fred, thanks again for letting us use them!

Denise

[ferris]

I vote we ban r-comps from small bore because my girlfriend just told me that I would have to move out if I stored my 2nd set of wheels/tires in the house

[BugBomb]

I vote we ban r-comps from small bore because my girlfriend just told me that I would have to move out if I stored my 2nd set of wheels/tires in the house

Who wears the race rubber in this relationship?