Suggestions for Next Season, Small Bore and Beyond

[bugman1964]

and mike's reason for being in SM is exactly why I love cdc's setup. I can build my car how I want it and not be worried about being blown out of the water because I didn't do every mod with in rule book. Or being bumped in a class cause I want something on my car that I like.

[hepcatz]

I agree with that!

[edfooliu]

So long as people understand that having fewer rules and fewer classes means that you DO give up a degree of parity. Instead of being blown out of the water by not prepping your car to the limit of the rulebook in a class, you get blown out of the water by not prepping your car to the greater limits of a smaller ruleset (see: original discussion about parity of competition in small bore). Cake and eating, not going to happen IMHO.

It's certainly nice to have a place to play for cars that weren't built with the SCCA class rules in mind--and i do think such a place _ought_ to exist, which is why I'm not big on the idea of officially sanctioning SCCA classes/indexes at CDC.

Having the PAX calculations is going to work for some people but not for everyone. Since it's unofficial, it doesn't need to be anything more than an opt-in thing that _some_ people find interesting/useful.

[bugman1964]

I understand the desire to be top of the times but I know my car is not capable of doing that, thus I just choose a few people or cars at each event that I want to beat. It always feels nice to know that my car is beating much more expensive or better prepped cars then mine.

[edfooliu]

I understand the desire to be top of the times but I know my car is not capable of doing that, thus I just choose a few people or cars at each event that I want to beat. It always feels nice to know that my car is beating much more expensive or better prepped cars then mine.

Which is what I like to do, too. At which point the classing/indexing system stops mattering wherever and with whomever you run. Who cares about bump classes and rcomp indexes when I'm going to ignore them anyway?

[hepcatz]

Again i agree with a slight modification...

"I understand the desire to be top of the times but I know I am not capable of doing that, thus I just choose a few people or cars at each event that I want to beat. It always feels nice to know that my skill is beating comparable other drivers.



John

I understand the desire to be top of the times but I know my car is not capable of doing that, thus I just choose a few people or cars at each event that I want to beat. It always feels nice to know that my car is beating much more expensive or better prepped cars then mine.

[Claff]

Agreed on all points. I can look at CDC results and see how I stack up against the other Miatas knowing that some out-suspension me or out-tire me or just plain out-driver me. What will be fun as I plan on running a whole lot more with CDC is seeing if I can close the gap between the other Miatas that are beating me, even though I have no upgrades planned for either car this winter.

One frustrating thing about SCCA is that there are 20 Miatas that show up, but they're spread among four different classes. On the plus side, there's a healthy field of STS Miatas (most far better prepped/driven than mine) but I don't think I'd be as enthusiastic if I was one of the three E Stock regulars. I'm not knocking SCCA by a longshot since I love running with them as well, but it certainly is a completely different animal from CDC and I enjoy both scenarios.

The other big plus with CDC is that when I feel like taking a different car, I'll keep adding to my points total regardless of whether it's a STS car or a CSP car or even BSP if I decide to take the MSM out. If I did that with SCCA I'd have a few points in three different classes.

So I wouldn't change a thing.

[bugman1964]

If you're ever curious about what your car could be running I'm sure if you ask one of the top drivers to drive your car for a few laps they wont turn you down. I always index my car for an event by having Mike Moran take a few hot laps in it to set a base time for me. I know if I can get withing 2 or 3 seconds of his time in my car I'm doing well.

[dannykao]

^^^^^^^^^

That's the smartest thing you can do in autox!!!!

[eage8]

If you're ever curious about what your car could be running I'm sure if you ask one of the top drivers to drive your car for a few laps they wont turn you down. I always index my car for an event by having Mike Moran take a few hot laps in it to set a base time for me. I know if I can get within 2 or 3 seconds of his time in my car I'm doing well.

yeah, I asked Mike Moran to drive my RX-7 one time... and I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing but he did about as well as I was doing in it lol. Hopefully after a few key mods this winter the RX-7 won't suck quite as much... Yay Torsens

[dannykao]

I bet you if you let Mike drive the car three times, the results will be different...

The only person I know that can jump in anybody's car, and be immediately fast is Sam Strano. (Assuming Sam can fit in, of course ) Most good drivers will need at least a couple of runs to gain some kind of trust to your car before they can go all out anyway.

Mike is an awesome driver and I trust him to drive my car anytime, and he also gave me very accurate feedbacks and which helped me a bunch on what to change and setup priorities.

[eage8]

I bet you if you let Mike drive the car three times, the results will be different...

The only person I know that can jump in anybody's car, and be immediately fast is Sam Strano. (Assuming Sam can fit in, of course ) Most good drivers will need at least a couple of runs to gain some kind of trust to your car before they can go all out anyway.

Mike is an awesome driver and I trust him to drive my car anytime, and he also gave me very accurate feedbacks and which helped me a bunch on what to change and setup priorities.

He actually rode with me once and drove it twice.

I'm in no way saying I'm anywhere close to as good of a driver as Mike is. I'm just saying driving my RX-7 is "unique" lol. It takes much longer to get used to than most cars I would imagine.

and it took me till the end of the test and tune (I had 6 runs in my car) to beat the time he set in my car after 2 runs...

It also had a failing master clutch cylinder at the time which made it even more tricky

[BugBomb]

Yes, Mike. Your RX7 is "special," but I have seen worse.

I remember one guy in an MR-2 that couldn't figure out why he was slow. I got behind the wheel, but it felt like the car had somewhere around 2 degrees of toe-in on the front end. It wouldn't do anything but understeer. He swears the alignment was good but I am not so sure.

[eage8]

Yes, Mike. Your RX7 is "special," but I have seen worse.

I remember one guy in an MR-2 that couldn't figure out why he was slow. I got behind the wheel, but it felt like the car had somewhere around 2 degrees of toe-in on the front end. It wouldn't do anything but understeer. He swears the alignment was good but I am not so sure.

Haha, poor RX-7

Over the winter I'm installing a torsen LSD from an FD, removing the rear sway bar, getting bigger better tires (255s/275s) installing some new bushings and mounts, switching boost control to my megasquirt and installing a rear camber adjuster... so hopefully after all that I'll have a lot more rear traction and an overall much better auto-x car

It's going to be a busy winter...

if anyone wants to buy a greddy profec B spec II boost controller let me know.

[hepcatz]

So far after all this time the only suggestion for 2010 I can think of is to have umbrella girls.

[etherpool]

The displacement for SB hasn't changed right? I'm picking up a 318ti and I think I'm going to be bumped out. It's a 1.9 that gives me a whopping 1 hp and 1 ft lb of torque over the 1.8!

[eage8]

The displacement for SB hasn't changed right? I'm picking up a 318ti and I think I'm going to be bumped out. It's a 1.9 that gives me a whopping 1 hp and 1 ft lb of torque over the 1.8!

That stinks. there aren't very many 1.9L though, so you might be able to convince Ed Chan to modify the rules a little bit. It's also only 1896cc so you might ask Ed if you can just round down lol. As long as we don't move up to 2.0L and let the s2000 guys in I don't see a problem with it

[etherpool]

The displacement for SB hasn't changed right? I'm picking up a 318ti and I think I'm going to be bumped out. It's a 1.9 that gives me a whopping 1 hp and 1 ft lb of torque over the 1.8!

That stinks. there aren't very many 1.9L though, so you might be able to convince Ed Chan to modify the rules a little bit. It's also only 1896cc so you might ask Ed if you can just round down lol. As long as we don't move up to 2.0L and let the s2000 guys in I don't see a problem with it

Ed? Got any love for the 1.9 Bimmers? Car is 138hp. ?

[echan]

The displacement for SB hasn't changed right? I'm picking up a 318ti and I think I'm going to be bumped out. It's a 1.9 that gives me a whopping 1 hp and 1 ft lb of torque over the 1.8!

We've allowed the BMW 318 in the past, provided you do not bore out or stroke the motor or swap the motor to a larger displacement. Technically the 318 is over 1.8 liters, but we realize that the 318 still roughly the same capability (lack of ability) as the other SB cars, as evident in the 318s running this year. Plus the 318 fits the spirt of a cheap autox car. Just don't modify or swap the motor with a different high HP BMW motor and expect to be allowed in the SB field.

I know that one can cheat, and we'd have a hard time proving it. But if there is a giant performance difference as compared to the other SB or 318's, we would have to revisit allowing your car the following year. Winning is one thing but having a clearly un-fair car is another thing. I know that people will start to say that a stock Miata is completely out-classed a miata with r-compounds. I think the agruement is that a very good driver on street tires can still beat an average driver with r-compounds. In addition, the cost to upgrade a miata with r-compounds is not prohibitively expensive, for most people.

On the flip side, we do not allow certain vehicles that have 1.8 motor but completely out-class the small bore field (e.g. Lotus Elise, Lotus 7, Lotus 11 (if one ever showed up)). In the end, all vehicles have to petition to be allowed in the Small Bore Series.

Ed

[etherpool]

The displacement for SB hasn't changed right? I'm picking up a 318ti and I think I'm going to be bumped out. It's a 1.9 that gives me a whopping 1 hp and 1 ft lb of torque over the 1.8!

We've allowed the BMW 318 in the past, provided you do not bore out or stroke the motor or swap the motor to a larger displacement. Technically the 318 is over 1.8 liters, but we realize that the 318 still roughly the same capability (lack of ability) as the other SB cars, as evident in the 318s running this year. Plus the 318 fits the spirt of a cheap autox car. Just don't modify or swap the motor with a different high HP BMW motor and expect to be allowed in the SB field.

I know that one can cheat, and we'd have a hard time proving it. But if there is a giant performance difference as compared to the other SB or 318's, we would have to revisit allowing your car the following year. Winning is one thing but having a clearly un-fair car is another thing. I know that people will start to say that a stock Miata is completely out-classed a miata with r-compounds. I think the agruement is that a very good driver on street tires can still beat an average driver with r-compounds. In addition, the cost to upgrade a miata with r-compounds is not prohibitively expensive, for most people.

On the flip side, we do not allow certain vehicles that have 1.8 motor but completely out-class the small bore field (e.g. Lotus Elise, Lotus 7, Lotus 11 (if one ever showed up)). In the end, all vehicles have to petition to be allowed in the Small Bore Series.

Ed

Nope, the motor is all stock. Just suspension mods. Nothing crazy. I'm just trying to catch up to AJ!
Thanks for the quick reply!

[gimp]

The displacement for SB hasn't changed right? I'm picking up a 318ti and I think I'm going to be bumped out. It's a 1.9 that gives me a whopping 1 hp and 1 ft lb of torque over the 1.8!

We've allowed the BMW 318 in the past, provided you do not bore out or stroke the motor or swap the motor to a larger displacement. Technically the 318 is over 1.8 liters, but we realize that the 318 still roughly the same capability (lack of ability) as the other SB cars, as evident in the 318s running this year. Plus the 318 fits the spirt of a cheap autox car. Just don't modify or swap the motor with a different high HP BMW motor and expect to be allowed in the SB field.

I know that one can cheat, and we'd have a hard time proving it. But if there is a giant performance difference as compared to the other SB or 318's, we would have to revisit allowing your car the following year. Winning is one thing but having a clearly un-fair car is another thing. I know that people will start to say that a stock Miata is completely out-classed a miata with r-compounds. I think the agruement is that a very good driver on street tires can still beat an average driver with r-compounds. In addition, the cost to upgrade a miata with r-compounds is not prohibitively expensive, for most people.

On the flip side, we do not allow certain vehicles that have 1.8 motor but completely out-class the small bore field (e.g. Lotus Elise, Lotus 7, Lotus 11 (if one ever showed up)). In the end, all vehicles have to petition to be allowed in the Small Bore Series.

Ed

Nope, the motor is all stock. Just suspension mods. Nothing crazy. I'm just trying to catch up to AJ!
Thanks for the quick reply!

Good to hear... I'll be sure to put my 318ti in small bore this year.

[defylogik]

How would the SCCA class a car with a bell helicopter jet engine? You couldn't. Win to CDC