Suggestions for Next Season, Small Bore and Beyond

[dhowell]

I've given a lot of thought to the debate over what to do about R-comps in small bore. I have come to the conclusion that it would be unfair to all the people already using them to eliminate R-comps. We could always introduce an index, but I'm not sure if that would have much of an impact either. I think that the entire reason for modifying the rules would be to allow more people the chance to be legitimately competitive. I feel like there were generally the same people in small bore with the top five times. Maybe this will change next year - I know a few people who plan on being serious contenders next year. Personally, I'm tempted to get some R-comps and better suspension for next year so I can maybe give Frank and Dan a little competition, although I'm just not sure I have the driving skills to do it. But in the end, I'm not sure if small bore really appeals to that many people or is open to enough cars. This got me thinking...

For the most part the championship is a competition between very good drivers with very good cars. Small bore attempts to offer another level of competition, but I think there are a lot of people lost in between the two. Obviously not everyone can win a trophy, but maybe more people should have the chance. I understand that CDC's main purpose is fun, and I would be perfectly satisfied if we decide that the best way to achieve that is for everything to remain the same. No matter what the rules, I will still be learning new things, meeting new people and having a great time. But I believe we could introduce a competitive element to more of our members without giving the organizers too many headaches, mainly by the introduction of another series or two.

First, I think a novice series would be a great idea. It could use the same indexes as the regular championship but give a separate set of awards. I just started autocrossing this year, and I would have liked the opportunity to compete against other drivers at a similar skill level. This could be a very big series. Depending on what is considered to be a novice, we have a lot of potential competitors. There were a lot of people that also started out this year, including many at the end of the season. And this is something that might help us attract new members. The only difficulty is deciding what the criteria for novice is.

Another option might be a stock/street tire series. There are plenty of people already running unmodified cars on street tires, so why not give them a series to compete in? We know they have almost no chance at the existing championships. Also, this might be a way to address the debate over what to do about suspension mods. Obviously suspension can have a major impact on performance and is unaccounted for in indexing, but I don't think anyone wants to open that can of worms. It's just too difficult to account for all the possibilities while still maintaining a relatively simple system. But a series like this could take that out of the equation. The difficulty for this one would be deciding what qualifies as stock. For instance, I consider my Miata stock, but I have Koseis that are wider than any wheel it came with from the factory and I put on HPS's because I couldn't stand the OEM brake pads. I'm sure some people would consider that ineligible for a stock class. And what about other wear items, like clutches, dampers, etc? However, once some ground rules were laid out, we could just index for power and weight and it would be fairly simple.

Of course, showing up is half the battle. On the level of individual events, there was usually a good number of people qualified for small bore, but most of these people did not attend enough events to be even remotely competitive. Maybe a series with broader appeal would get more people at more events. I'm sure that the close competition was a major incentive for Frank and Dan to attend those last few events. Perhaps if more people had that incentive, they would come more often and attendance wouldn't play such a big role in who was winning.

I don't want to make things too complicated, but I think having just the overall driver championship and small bore excludes a lot of people from being competitive, at least in the sense that they could win something. I would be really interested to hear some feedback from the organizers as to how feasible any of this might be and from everyone else to see if there's even interest in such things or if there are any other ideas.

Denise

[defylogik]

Who races cdc to win ?

[BrianK]

Denise,

A solution to your problem has already been solved!!! It's called the SCCA. Yay! People can race against one another in similar vehicles in specific classes so to eliminate "a lot of people lost in between". Instead of having just 2 champions (CDC's main and small bore), you can have 30+ champions. Everything has been figured out as they have pre-calculated indexes for all vehicles based on data taken from hundreds of autocrosses around the nation. This data is FREE for all organizations to use. They even update it every year to try to keep competition as fair as possible with the main intent of removing the car from the equation to let drivers battle it out. You can compete in the overall SCCA PAX index (what CDC tries to do, but they are only drawing data from one very small pool), you can compete against cars in similar trim as yours (what CDC doesn't have, except for small bore), and they even have provisions for novices who would like to compete against one another. Problem solved!!! It would be REALLY nice if one day CDC could realize how much better and SIMPLER a system this is. If you have X car, you use Y index, DONE!

-Brian

[flohtingPoint]

Who races cdc to win ?

I usually get enough pleasure from beating myself. Erm... You know what I mean...

[eage8]

Denise,

A solution to your problem has already been solved!!! It's called the SCCA. Yay! People can race against one another in similar vehicles in specific classes so to eliminate "a lot of people lost in between". Instead of having just 2 champions (CDC's main and small bore), you can have 30+ champions. Everything has been figured out as they have pre-calculated indexes for all vehicles based on data taken from hundreds of autocrosses around the nation. This data is FREE for all organizations to use. They even update it every year to try to keep competition as fair as possible with the main intent of removing the car from the equation to let drivers battle it out. You can compete in the overall SCCA PAX index (what CDC tries to do, but they are only drawing data from one very small pool), you can compete against cars in similar trim as yours (what CDC doesn't have, except for small bore), and they even have provisions for novices who would like to compete against one another. Problem solved!!! It would be REALLY nice if one day CDC could realize how much better and SIMPLER a system this is. If you have X car, you use Y index, DONE!

-Brian

Would you really want a 3rd club that's exactly the same? Part of the reason CDC is nice in my opinion is because it's different. Who cares if it's different just for the sake of being different, it's a different experience that different people will enjoy more or less.

I think Denise's ideas are really good. There are different solutions to every problem, and CDC is for thinking outside the box. I think everyone can agree that the SCCA classes and indexes are good and if you want to use them go for it, go to a WDCR or AI event. Lets try to be a bit more creative with CDC...

[BugBomb]

It would be REALLY nice if one day CDC could realize how much better and SIMPLER a system this is.

A solution to your problem has already been solved!!! It's called the SCCA. Yay!

Seriously, though. We used to offer a field for entrants to put in their pax index at registration (we even gave them a link to a website that would help them find their index), but almost no one used it. It's already built into our registration system, so we may revisit the possibility of using it next year. It adds an extra step to the results, but its an easy step. I wouldn't hold my breath for any awards from a pax series, though, unless there is a lot of support from our members.

[edfooliu]

although I'm just not sure I have the driving skills to do it

broken record time...if you want to be competitive/faster, nothing will do it as quickly as seat time seat time seat time seat time seat time seat time... and/or shifter karts, but i think there's already another thread for that...

With regard to any new series or any new rules to existing series, I'm going to have to echo Brian... I've said before (and some would say I've done so rather too often...) that classing is a far, far more complex problem than you really want to deal with. the SCCA has orders of magnitude more datapoints and years and years of history working on this problem....repeating all that work from square one doesn't make sense to me. And don't get me started on street tires...that's a pandora's box you do NOT want to open. I can't say enough how easy it is to underestimate the scope of the problem you're trying to solve or ignore the work of vast numbers of smart people over tens of years. we certainly won't accomplish anything different by employing the same basic strategy the SCCA does (rules, indexes).

Really, I just think all that needs to happen is a revival of John W's SCCA PAX calculations for CDC results (I'm possibly volunteering):
http://buttdynoracing.com/wp/?page_id=99
Read the SCCA classing rules, figure out what class you're in, drop into spreadsheet, done. Enter if you want, ignore if you want, no organizer involvement necessary. unofficial, but if we're all here to have fun, what's the difference?

I'm a fan of the novice class idea, though like you said that has some challenges. It does appear to work well at the two clubs I've run with this season that has such a class (Autocrossers, Inc in the DC region and the Philly region SCCA). Worth thinking about more, particularly with the issues of who qualifies, etc.

Re:showing up... I know personally I lost some motivation after figuring out the sheer number of events one has to make to be competitive in either series. The low drops-to-events ratio was probably intended to encourage attendence, but it had the opposite effect with me. Once I knew I was probably not going to make enough events, I lost the competition incentive to go to CDC over other activities or other autox clubs/venues.

[edfooliu]

We used to offer a field for entrants to put in their pax index at registration (we even gave them a link to a website that would help them find their index), but almost no one used it. It's already built into our registration system, so we may revisit the possibility of using it next year. It adds an extra step to the results, but its an easy step. I wouldn't hold my breath for any awards from a pax series, though, unless there is a lot of support from our members.

This I did not know... If you care about a more granular indexing system, enter yourself. I like it. +1 vote for re-enabling it.

[BrianK]

I think Denise's ideas are really good.

I do too! She's talking about adding more classes to make everyone feel like they are able to have a chance to compete.

We used to offer a field for entrants to put in their pax index at registration (we even gave them a link to a website that would help them find their index), but almost no one used it.

I remember that! However, the points system wasn't based on that, so it didn't really matter if you entered it or not. I entered it the first few times, but it was never shown anywhere in any results, so not like it even mattered...

Anyway, either way, I'm good! I have a lot of fun at CDC. Probably more so than WDCR or AI... 6 runs, free drinks, relaxed atmosphere, short working assignments, a break between runs, it doesn't get much better. Honestly, I'm really just sick of seeing these threads pop up during the winter EVERY YEAR all the time about people wanting rules for this or that when all the work has already been done for you guys. People can then stop complaining and accept it and start talking about more productive things than rule changes for parking lot racing.

[defylogik]

Who races cdc to win ?

I usually get enough pleasure from beating myself. Erm... You know what I mean...

Bad, bad, bad hahah

[defylogik]

And please, please, please, do not let the CDC turn into the SCCA. Thumbs down to serious classes and PAX.

Where else can a bad ass 86 corolla with switch side color'd wheels be competitive You know who you are ahahhahha

[dhowell]

I know the novice class was brought up last winter. I think we should give it some serious consideration for next season. It's easy to implement and could be a draw for new members.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's much of a place for stock cars with street tires between the current clubs in our area. This could be another thing that sets us apart and helps boost membership/event attendance. But this might prove too complicated to work for us.

I'm not trying to make things overly complicated. I think part of the club's appeal is its simplicity. Another part is that it's small enough that member feedback can actually be an important factor in decisions. If members want it to stay the way it is, then it probably will. I was just hoping to throw some ideas out there that could improve CDC while staying true to the core values.

[Jim Harris]

I agree with this:

"Re:showing up... I know personally I lost some motivation after figuring out the sheer number of events one has to make to be competitive in either series. The low drops-to-events ratio was probably intended to encourage attendence, but it had the opposite effect with me. Once I knew I was probably not going to make enough events, I lost the competition incentive to go to CDC over other activities or other autox clubs/venues."

I made six of 15 events. If the drop/event ratio were different, I probably would have wedged in more. I'd still make SCCA my first priority, Cumberland second. But maybe CDC would displace AI as my third priority. (There would be more incentive still if the courses were longer and faster.) The CDC atmosphere is great, and I doubt it would be harmed by tinkering with the format.

How about a NASCAR-style end of season shootout series, maybe the last three events, for which you qualify based on your best five finishes in the first 12 events? That would seriously interest me.

Jim

[ScoobyDoo]

I suggest we have a "Boy racer series". I'm thinking we have indexes for wing size, for inability to pass over speed bumps, for legitimacy of inspection sticker, for exhaust tip diameter, and for number of manufacturer stickers on the car. The winner of the series gets a bottle of hair gel and a pastel polo shirt with a starched collar.

[echan]

The low drops-to-events ratio was probably intended to encourage attendence, but it had the opposite effect with me. Once I knew I was probably not going to make enough events, I lost the competition incentive to go to CDC over other activities or other autox clubs/venues."

We estimated we would probably only hold about 13 of the scheduled 16 points events (due to weather or scheduling problems that happen every year with the site owners). Allowing the participants to drop roughly 1/3 of the events, left us with "dropping 4 rule" for this year.

We ended up with 14 points events with only one Summit event being dropped and the SNAFU Bowie event that happened (but we didn't award points). In hindsight, it probably would have been better to have a "drop 5" this year.

Next year we will probably have a high number to drop, pending on what locations we can get and how many events we hold. I realize that people in PA probably don't like traveling to Woodbridge and those in Fredericksburg (yes we have a few members there) don't like going to Frederick. Factor in weddings, family matters, chores and other activities, and then we must try to find a realistic number of allowed "drop events."

Joe M. said that he may possibly be able to donate an old 1969 Sprite to the club. We could get it running and make it a "spec" car, where participants can buy a couple runs (at the end of their heat) in addition to the normal 6 runs. Then we post the Spec car results as a series. We can also give an award for that day too (like a free pass to the winner for that day). The funds raised by the spec car would go directly for maintence of the car. I talked about it with the organizers previously but most of us wouldn't want to give up their car to be trashed by mulitple drivers at each event. The repair costs could be much more than the money brought in from participants. Basically, the spec car would have to be a really cheap car to maintain to make the fee reasonable. Participants would also have to understand not purposely try to break the car.

[mla163]

I might as well weigh in.

Novice class was brought up before (maybe by me). I like the idea to promote new drivers like Denise. Some clubs have a novice class where if you win an event, then you can not compete in novice class again. It deters "ringers" from winning the entire season in a Novice class, but promotes people coming out and getting a taste and a win.

Stock class was brought up before. This also promotes rookie drivers. The problem with a "stock" class is that stock cars shouldn't be competitive. Even "stock" cars in SCCA are modified. If you show up with a bone stock PT Cruiser on stock tires, you aren't going to win. It is unfair to the dedicated drivers to be beat by a bone stock car with an enormous time modifier. This could be tied in to a novice class, 2 birds.

The SCCA classes have their merits and their disadvantages. There is plenty of griping on the other side of the fence regarding SCCA classing, it's limitations and fairness. I think it's safe to say that CDC will never use PAX classing for official results. CDC provides an outlet for all cars to compete using a simple system. The CDC system isn't perfect, but I think it's fair and simple. I haven't heard many gripes this year about classing.

Keep in mind, any of these changes require more work from the organizers. The easier, the better.

Regarding dropping events: we ran 16 events and were allowed to drop 4. Even if you run 12, that's a lot of events. Attendence becomes very critical for the driver's championship. As I understand, next year there will be a "North" and "South" championship, so that drivers do not need to go to every event in order to be competitive. I think this is a very good idea.

[bugman1964]

I would just say a rookie of the year award. We dont really need a seperate class but some recognition for the rookie of the year would be good.

[Imprezive_04]

a north and a south championship? You could combine that with Jim's idea. Taking the top 3 or 5 from each "division" and then having the final 4 events of the year crown an overall champ...

Just throwing that out there, but I do like that idea.

[bugman1964]

Well we already know the north will win. bad history humor.

[ButtDyno]

We used to offer a field for entrants to put in their pax index at registration (we even gave them a link to a website that would help them find their index), but almost no one used it.

I remember that! However, the points system wasn't based on that, so it didn't really matter if you entered it or not. I entered it the first few times, but it was never shown anywhere in any results, so not like it even mattered...

Yep... Kyle said that no one was using it, not once, and then checked the database and it turned out a few people had. Still only 3%.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27&p=274#p277

Really, I just think all that needs to happen is a revival of John W's SCCA PAX calculations for CDC results (I'm possibly volunteering):
http://buttdynoracing.com/wp/?page_id=99

Google spreadsheet + 5 minutes of your time. Do eet!

[edfooliu]

Google spreadsheet + 5 minutes of your time. Do eet!

...and you just made me realize it takes longer to type up posts than to actually do it.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... 5Smc&hl=en

Just enter name, car, class, and time...sheet does the factor lookup and calculation.

[eage8]

Google spreadsheet + 5 minutes of your time. Do eet!

...and you just made me realize it takes longer to type up posts than to actually do it.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... 5Smc&hl=en

Just enter name, car, class, and time...sheet does the factor lookup and calculation.

I added my time! I'm in last

[Claff]

I didn't run on the 21st but I did TnT on Sunday (same course, right?) and added that time just for ha-has. If it's not applicable someone will whack my entry from the record.

With that iffy comparison I wind up beating the other Miata in PAX even though it waxed me in raw time (his car being CSP while mine is STS). It took me from betting beat by .9 second to beating him by .9 second. Us street tire folks might get to like this system!

[dannykao]

Just so you know that the CSP and my DM are extremely under prepared. I wouldn't be surprised if a well prepped P or M car with a good driver be in in the 34s and 33s, or even 32s.

[eage8]

Just so you know that the CSP and my DM are extremely under prepared. I wouldn't be surprised if a well prepped P or M car with a good driver be in in the 34s and 33s, or even 32s.

yeah, my SM Corolla is amazingly under-prepared too. It doesn't stand much of a chance against a car like Brian's or Ernest's cars It's just in street mod because I swapped the engine when my old one blew up due to my inability to tune Webers lol