Your opinion - which autocrosses did you like/hate?

[saint_foo]

I know there were a LOT of people that griped about Summit Point's skidpad after the first and/or second event....but I think most of us that showed up to the later ones really found them challenging, enjoyable, fun, and different.

Here are the venues:

1) Summit Point (Washington circuit - triple skidpad)

2) Woodbridge (Hylton high school)

3) Bowie, MD (Prince George's Stadium)

4) Frederick, MD (Harry Grove Stadium)


Personally, I really, really loved Hylton HS. There was nothing wrong with that lot. The only minor complaint was the distance/drive (and I live in VA!).

Summit Point - wow...I think that it was friggin' incredible. A little bit hairy for some cars, but I think designers did a good job with what we had. Plus, you have all kinds of car-related activities going on. Karting afterwards? Just a beautiful drive out there. The only downside I think is that it really favors a couple cars, where others are at a serious disadvantage as far as times. The AWD cars seemed to do quite well, whereas the Cobras faired poorly (compared to their usual finishes). All-in-all, I really loved this lot as well.

Bowie - nice as usual...but I don't care for the surface. There's a bit of sand/pebbles/whatever that makes it a bit slippery. I do like the layout. It allows you to build 2 halves, both of which could be totally different (1 more technical, 1 a bit looser).

Harry Grove - we saw some new designs, especially the last event. Although it's a smallish course, that nasty dip in the middle (when will they fix the surface?!)....it's a pretty good lot. Not to mention it's close to the highway and fairly accessible for many people (unlike Woodbridge or Bowie). Plus, the fact that we do a test-and-tune makes it that much more fun.


I'd really like to see opinions from those who ran at Summit Point later in the season. A bunch of you did not like it and in my opinion, didn't give it a fair shot. Either that or you're jaded by other lots like Cumberland or FedEx.

[mla163]

I was very excited about Summit at first. The surface has its limitations, but I don't hate it. It forces you to drive smoothly. What I did not like about the venue is the lack of run off room. The dirt (mud) circles are filled with rocks and logs, an off can cause some damage. Tire walls were stacked up in a few areas, some spins got dangerously close to these. I thinks it's only a matter of time until somehting really bad happens at Summit - an off with a roll down a hill, smacking a tire wall or worse.

Woodbridge has potential and is a pretty good layout. I like. It has a lot of lightpoles, but these can be worked around.

Bowie is great. I think not using the lowest part of the lot is a smart decision.

Frederick is small, but I really liked the last course we had. It's far, it's small, but I've had a lot of fun here

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

1) Summit Point (Washington circuit - triple skidpad)- Only ran there once this year but I thought it was great. Although the pavement is slick, it can def. level out the playing field and really show driver abilities. Personally I'd love to run there more because I think it's the best place to learn car control. Only thing I don't like about it is the run off space, not nearly enough or safe enough.

2) Woodbridge (Hylton high school)- never been, too damn far.

3) Bowie, MD (Prince George's Stadium)- My favorite of CDC's venues. Decent size lot with good grip. Great for spectating. Wish more could be done with the courses on this lot but it is what it is.

4) Frederick, MD (Harry Grove Stadium)- Even though this lot is small, it's still decent. Courses are generally the same but I realize there's only so much you can do on that lot. One thing I'm always worried about is distance between grid and the course. I know I saw one spin on Saturdays event that came close to the cars in grid, had me on edge a bit. Maybe if the organizers(?) cars weren't parked in the spots near the port-a-john that might open a little more safety room for the grid cars.

Overall the venues are all fun and worth it to me.

[Jim Harris]

I think we've only scratched the surface of what can be done at Hylton. I hope that course design on that lot can be further developed next year (though I know it's too far for some of us).

Has the club ever considered Blue Crab Stadium in Waldorf? That is a first class lot and can't be too expensive. Worth trying next year for sure.

Jim

[mla163]

Has the club ever considered Blue Crab Stadium in Waldorf? That is a first class lot and can't be too expensive. Worth trying next year for sure.

Seconded, it's a great lot (and cheap)

[flohtingPoint]

I didn't really hate any of the venues. Summit was a highly FWD/AWD biased course as out of pocket acceleration in RWD cars is VERY limited there. Bowie I never had any luck in, eating a tire one time and having fuel delivery problems another time. The only time I ran Woodbridge, my fan switch died on me and I had to push my car between runs to avoid overheating (much thanks to Mike for letting me use his wire strippers to put a temp fix on my fan). The only place I never had a single issue was Harry Grove. Regardless, I like all those places over Fed Ex. I hit that up a couple times and then never went back as the track is not Corolla friendly at all... I'll return there when my MR2 is finished.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

I think we've only scratched the surface of what can be done at Hylton. I hope that course design on that lot can be further developed next year (though I know it's too far for some of us).

Has the club ever considered Blue Crab Stadium in Waldorf? That is a first class lot and can't be too expensive. Worth trying next year for sure.

Jim

Third, the pavement there is freesssshhh. A bit far for me but worth it IMO.

[edfooliu]

1) Summit Point (Washington circuit - triple skidpad) - fantastic speed, crappy surface. The latter is great fun to slide around and learn some car control BUT I call it a net negative because of the lack of runoff. I had to back off in a lot of spots or intentionally take a slower line because the correct line/entry speed had way too high risk if you missed it. The center islands are rough, but the real scary bit is the perimeter of the skidpad... strips of grass and a hill on one side, dropoff down a hill on the others. Really a shame since the courses themselves were a ton of fun. The absurdly fast 'bookends' are just delightful... but I can't ever drive 100% because of the risk. Like Mark said, only a matter of time before something happens IMO...

2) Woodbridge (Hylton high school) - like everyone says, lots of potential there--I think the most of all 4 venues. Long drive, but can be worth the trip.

3) Bowie, MD (Prince George's Stadium) - surface is always loose/dirty, but it's the only lot with elevation/camber changes. Usually fun courses that make real good use of the shape/space.

4) Frederick, MD (Harry Grove Stadium) - Echoing AJ's concerns about grid... had a moment on Saturday where I considered bailing out the side of Danny's 7. That was the only time I ran there, so I don't know how typical of a course that was, but I was impressed... got a lot out of a very small area. And the short drive for me is nice =)

Fed Ex. I hit that up a couple times and then never went back as the track is not Corolla friendly at all...

Really? It's the only place where the courses are fast enough to keep my civic (and all 120 SOHC crank horsies) in its powerband through the corners. Momentum cars are an awful lot more fun when you can carry speed without bogging their anemic motors.

[flohtingPoint]

Really? It's the only place where the courses are fast enough to keep my civic (and all 120 SOHC crank horsies) in its powerband through the corners. Momentum cars are an awful lot more fun when you can carry speed without bogging their anemic motors.

Those national style courses are too wide open for my truck transmission in the rolla. Plus the surface changes upset the hell out of the car which fights for traction as it is.

[CONEV8R]

Frederick was the only venue that I've run so far (at the 11/21 event, it was, in fact, my first CDC event ever), and I liked what you all did with the space you had to use. I will echo the concerns with the cars in grid being in such close proximity to the cars on course. It's not an issue until someone loses it, and there was one driver with a flair for the dramatic who spun quite rambunctiously and stopped fairly close to grid. On a wet day, that spun could have ended much much worse than it did, and luckily nobody was hurt and nothing got damaged. I was out working the course at the time of the spin, and it echoed a rush of fear through all of us. Unfortunately, with the lot configuration, there's not many options in the way of a grid location other than along that edge. Maybe for future course designs, there should be slower, more technical elements along that side of the lot?

Other than that one little mishap, I loved the course, and found it really quite exciting, especially at the end of the first counterclockwise lap where you had to turn right, and it was really easy to mess up. As far as the lot itself goes, at least for my car, that so-called bump in the middle didn't really do anything to upset my car, but then again, I'm on stock suspension.

I've run several times over at FedEx with SCCA, and I love the wide-open, fast courses they set up, even if I am slow! I also really liked the smaller lot at Harry Grove Stadium as a change of pace.

[hepcatz]

1. Summit Point
2. Bowie
3. Harry Grove (only because on TnTs)
4. Hylton h.s.

I really like SP because it is different. A mini road course that's slick to prevent full speed which makes it challenging and not boring than stomping on the throttle and taking a nap. A nice break from the sea of cones & a long course when not under water. The drive out is long but scenic. Nice to check out the track events or kart while there though I could deal without worrying about shrapnel from g.i. joe at the shooting range. =) Even though Bowie is a sandbox it is a nice lot with gas, food & close freeway access. HGS only get's third because of the TnTs, otherwise it would be last. I really like the TnT idea and wish we could have them elsewhere. The last event was great due to unique layout. Hylton seems nice however with only one event to early to tell. The stadium restroom access would be better then the long, long walk (or scooter ride if you are Ed).

[Claff]

I haven't run Summit Point or Woodbridge yet but would like to, especially SP.

BIG "please" for considering Waldorf Blue Crabs Stadium, since it's 15 minutes from home.

I like Bowie. Been there a few times and have always enjoyed it with the relative lack of grip as it can be fun to throw a little RWD toy car around with relative abandon. I think using the lower lot should be considered - I've run with groups that use it and it can add a lot to the course. I know there was the MSCW incident over the summer but that ought to be considered an anomaly with an inexperienced driver in a high-HP car. The BMW club used the whole lot without drama.

Bowie's also a fairly short ride from Waldorf, so that gets even more cool points in my book.

Ran HGS for the first time on Sunday and liked it, even with the bump down the middle. You do a good job laying out a good course on a little lot but I can see its limitations.

So Bowie is my favorite, with Waldorf being a potential winner if you ran there.

[Wade Chamberlain]

1. Hylton - nice surface, close to me, lots of potential! I hope we can get a lot more dates here next year.
2. Bowie - a bit of a hike for me, and dirty, but there *is* a pretty good amount of grip if you stay on course. I also like the fact that it's an odd shaped lot w/ elevation changes...makes for some cool course designs.
3. HGS - too small, too rough, crappy grid options, etc...but I still kinda like it for some reason. The short technical courses are a nice change-up and it's by far the best for spectating.
4. Summit Point - let's see....short wheelbase, high HP, RWD....yup.... I *hate* summit point. It kills me to say that. I was so excited that we were going to be able to run at that location...close to me...huge area....tons of course possibilities...other motorsports stuff going on all the time. It had all the potential to be the perfect venue. Been there 2X in the Cobra and will probably never go back unless it's in the Miata.

[edit] - I've only run Waldorf once, with AI, and it was awesome!

[Imprezive_04]

A lot of comments here seem to favor the course closest to the posters home. So I'll defend the two nearest to me

Frederick - Is small and the bumps can be brutal. I actually find that depending on layout the bumps help me get some good ratation in the corners sometimes pointing me exactly where I want to be. While it is sort of the bastard of all of the events I, like a few before me, echo the comments that it holds a special place in my heart. It is by far the best for spectating and I like that it is slow and technical. I also like that recently we've had a lot of different course designs there. Bravo to Mike (and anyone else designing courses this year) for mixing it up and making Frederick feel fresh.

Summit - I love Summit. Not because of the layout or the surface. I think they ruined it with that sealer for cars and karts, but any time I roll in there I feel like I'm Jackie Stewart. The atmosphere alone makes Summit worth it for me. Hearing the other cars running around on the tracks, seeing the different types of cars rolling in. I'd be willing to pay more than the standard fee to continue to autoX at Summit. I also find the surface challenging and different.

Haven't made it to the other location as they are pretty far from me, but I plan to make as many events as possible next year.

[Dan133]

a. Hylton-- Way crazy far but worth it for the size and the surface.

b. Summit Point-- Reasonably close for me but I hate the traction on the surface-- changing from bad to awful at seemingly random points. I always seem to under drive or over drive . I suppose that this is more my problem.

c. Bowie-- For some reason I like the surface even with the inevitable grit. It seems to provide just the right amount of traction for my miata. Also, usually a nice high speed section in the middle. My current overall favorite.

d. HGS-- Ten minutes from my house and my sentimental favorite.

[BugBomb]

Summit is my favorite venue. I did not design any of the courses there this year. Those we're all Ted's and I think his designs got better every time. The short runoff room definitely calls for some reservation on the turnaround, but I loved drifting the SUXASS around it. I guess what I most enjoy about it is the challenge. The slick areas are easy to point out, and its just another obstacle to plan around. I also thoroughly enjoy being able to use the curbs on the fastest line. Though this venue is very difficult in a RWD car, I think a lot of people gave up on it a little too early. The surface may not have improved, but the courses got more interesting at each event.

I hate designing courses for Bowie. Every time I try a new one I feel like I am all out of ideas, but somehow I manage to finish it. Granted, I enjoy driving the courses that I have created, but I feel like this is the most limiting venue for design because of it's odd shape and slope.

Harry Grove is the smallest venue, but its at least one, big patch of pavement. Everything we do there is some combination of figure-8s and ovals, but I can add subtle details that make you forget about that while on course. Jacob wants us to try using the access road from the upper lot as the grid. There may be some effective way to do this, but it would require every car to drive out onto the public road and back to the upper lot after each run. The organizers need to discuss this, but it would be nice to hear some member opinions about it as well. This would eliminate the danger of cars on course colliding with grid, plus it gives us the most room for a course design.

Woodbridge is interesting to me because its a decent surface, but it has many limitations like Bowie. The large number of light poles worries me. It wouldn't be so bad except they put them too close to the edges of the lot. It drastically cuts down the area that we can use safely. Ultimately, I think the courses have a little more room for creativity than at Bowie.

[dannykao]

For gridding setup at HGS, how about grid just a single line at the entry/exit next to the street and have 1A drive while 2A work, and 1B drive while 2B work and vise versa? Gridding alone the spectator hill is nice, but I feel having the car along the road and only have the start next to the grid would make the course much safer. You can always have the turn/loop around 75 feet from the grid and have the exit in the middle or towards the entry/exit.

This will require someone at the entry/exit to direct traffic, and it might be messy. But the course could be bigger and safer.

Don't know if it's feasible, and it's just an opinion of course.

P.S. My old Evo was completely equipped to handle the surface at Summit, but I am still uncomfortable about it and I wouldn't bring the 7 to it - can't afford crashing it and I am chicken... (If I am not comfortable to drive 10/10 I wouldn't race)

Waldorf is $1200 per day (AI Price). Don't know if it's cheaper than other lots, but it's not "dirt" cheap... The stadium always seem to book a swap meet at the time of the race, but you can grid on the road next to it (you can simply put cones there to close it) so it's fairly safe. The bathroom is nice and clean. It's a lot better than Bowie's lot in my opinion.

[wrathe74]

Summit Point - Love it. Its the only time I can get the RSX to go all out (2 seconds behind mike in the SuxAss) and the only place I've been able to beat AJ! The run-off areas are limited and can potentially do some damage, but its getting better. Honestly, I feel safer there than any other place - including FedEx Stadium (I don't know why, I just do).

Woodbridge - is really nice, plenty of potential...but man, I needed a nap after driving around D.C. I only made it to the first event there; driving 2 hours to Woodbridge is soo much more tiring than the 2 hours to SP.

Bowie - overall the best place IMO. Its also like 15minutes from me! BONUS!

Frederick - Dizzying and bumpy, but fun! Mike has been designing some really good courses there this year....utilizing what he can out of that lot.

Blue Crab Stadium - +1 for recommendation. Very nice lot with plenty of room.

All in all, I don't hate any of them - they all have pro's and con's but I don't think any one of them stands out as "the ultimate place".
I am thankful that CDC provides so many different locations and provides so many opportunities to race thru the year.

[Spaz_Attack]

I have only been to Frederick and Bowie so far, I was going to go to the last Summit race but that didn't go so well.

Bowie - its well setup for us with the convenient gridding and the large area, I just wish there was a bit more done with the lower half (maybe a slalom at the far end?), also its a nice easy walk from the parking to the spectator area and grid, the surface is a bit rough but thats not a bad thing if its wet

Frederick - superb spectator area, the walk from the parking is a bit long, the grid area is a bit close to the course, the bump is a bit tricky for some of the more prepared cars, I like the smallness of it since I have a lower power to weight ratio

I do like Jacob's idea of using the path from the parking lot to the course as a gridding area at Frederick, more safety and space never seems like a bad thing. As for Waldorf an extra course would be nice especially if it has some nice pavement.

[bugman1964]

I'm really pushing the idea of gridding in the upper lot at HGS and using the access road as the lineup for cars, you would then exit the lot drive around and get back in line at the end of the run. but to maintain times I think we would need to do a little larger heats and people would have t o hussle to get back to the lower lot to work.HGS would be my favorite but the city really needs to top layer the lot.

Loved summit point in fact it's my best venue to run on for times and points. I love the drive out there as well as being able to watch the other races there.

never made it to hylton due to the distance and waldorf would be even further. but I am willing to give them a shot.

[saint_foo]

Thanks everyone for your input! Please, we could use more opinions. If we do less events at a lot that you really love, can't blame us if you didn't chime in. Also, if we continue to do something that seems like there's a better option, the more folks that chime in, the better chance we have for improvement.

As an organizer, we get to hear why we don't do certain things, why do things the way we do, etc. Ed Chan and the other organizers need feedback to get a feel from the participants. How can we better serve you?


Danny and others regarding 1 line grid: I think Ed Chan's and other people's thoughts are that a lot of time is lost by swapping cars in grid (driving off the lot and the incoming cars gridding). Ed C's done the math and it really is time consuming. However, if daylight, what time we finished, and we had a lighter attendance, then those factors might push for us to at least try it.

[eage8]

I feel like my response might sound like a broken record, but I'll post it anyway

Harry Grove:
Always fun, sometimes the courses do get quite repetitive, but I'm not sure I've ever been to one where there wasn't at least 1 corner that was new and interestingly challenging. the danger to grid is an issue, but I think a lot of that is because due to where the cars are, it turns those end turns into degreasing radius turns that people aren't really expecting. There was talk about the most recent course being sketchy before hand and if I'm not mistaken mike and Ed O tried their hardest to spin their cars into grid (before there was cars there) and couldn't... Jacob's idea about staging on the access road (sorry if it wasn't Jacobs originally) seems like a good idea, and is definitely worth a try. But I think we would have to have bigger heats for it to work, which wouldn't be a bad thing either because it would cut down on transitions. Sounds like a good idea for a test and tune. This is probably my second favourite venue

Bowie:
For some reason, I've never really gotten along with Bowie. I'm not really sure why, I just don't do well there. I think it has something to do with the almost blind transition. It also doesn't have as nice of a spectator area and it's hard to see both sides at the same time. Bowie also seems almost as limited as Harry Grove as far as course design goes and has some pretty scary curbs. But the grid is great and we definitely never run out of parking spots which is nice. This is probably tied for 3rd with Woodbridge.

Summit:
Summit seems like a very love it or hate it venue. I love the courses and how fast they can get (much faster it seems than the other venues). I also find it interesting (and somewhat annoying) that there is such radical changes in grip, but I think that just makes it that much more challenging. There have been some occasions where I think some gates were designed pretty poorly and were far to easy to go off at, but I'm sure with time, those situations would get fixed. A lot of the cobra guys complain about it a lot, but I'm not really sure I see where they're coming from. I've driven both my RX-7 (300+ hp) and a few miatas at summit and sure traction is an issue, but it just makes you drive a bit differently. And so what if you can't compete for FTD you get FTD like every time anyways This is probably my favourite venue just because of the high speeds, the completely different-ness of it, and the atmosphere (gotta love going to watch whichever cars are flying on the normal circuits and the karting afterwards ) But it is really expensive, and I wouldn't blame the organizers if we had to stop going there.

Woodbridge: I've only been here once, so I don't think that's nearly enough time to have a decently thought out opinion of it, but it seemed pretty good but it's really really far away . I'm not sure it's really worth the drive compared to other venues. Of course I say that.... but I'll probably still keep coming to auto-crosses there It has a great staging area, and a semi-decent speculating area. That's really all I can say about it due to the limited time there. I'll be interested to see what we do with it next year.

I'd also be interested to see what the Waldorf stadium is like as well.

[echan]

I'm really pushing the idea of gridding in the upper lot at HGS and using the access road as the lineup for cars, you would then exit the lot drive around and get back in line at the end of the run. but to maintain times I think we would need to do a little larger heats and people would have t o hussle to get back to the lower lot to work.HGS would be my favorite but the city really needs to top layer the lot.

We are not normally allowed to drive cars on the paved path between the upper and lower lots. I can check with Joe Macinnes but I'm pretty sure it's not an option.

[bugman1964]

That would be a shame since it would allow a different flow to the lot. To bad the church lot behind HGS isn't larger.

[saint_foo]

Regarding Harry Grove Stadium access path - that's thinking outside the box! I know I drove down it once or twice while setting up as an organizer. I think Ted or Richard gave me some gruff.

That seriously is a brilliant idea! We could even switch up stop/start then (well, maybe).

-Ed O