Your opinion - which autocrosses did you like/hate?

[bugman1964]

That's the general idea is to have start just on the lot and stop would be near the exit of the lot then you just loop around. If they are concerned about the grass just have a worker for the line that if people drive on the grass they get their times pulled or something along those lines.

[david.valeri]

Regarding Harry Grove Stadium access path - that's thinking outside the box! I know I drove down it once or twice while setting up as an organizer. I think Ted or Richard gave me some gruff.

That seriously is a brilliant idea! We could even switch up stop/start then (well, maybe).

-Ed O

The path has a couple issues:

1) Pedestrian safety
2) It is narrow and may only support one staging lane
2a) Even if it supports two rows of cars, we could only have 2 staging lanes or 1 staging lane and one exit/return lane.
2b) If it can only support 1 row of cars, that means participants need to return to the staging lane using the public street. This means they have to take their helmet off, they have to have a registered and street legal car, they have to drive their race tires on the street, and they have to not drive like a hooligan to get back in line.

[bugman1964]

Regarding Harry Grove Stadium access path - that's thinking outside the box! I know I drove down it once or twice while setting up as an organizer. I think Ted or Richard gave me some gruff.

That seriously is a brilliant idea! We could even switch up stop/start then (well, maybe).

-Ed O

The path has a couple issues:

1) Pedestrian safety
2) It is narrow and may only support one staging lane
2a) Even if it supports two rows of cars, we could only have 2 staging lanes or 1 staging lane and one exit/return lane.
2b) If it can only support 1 row of cars, that means participants need to return to the staging lane using the public street. This means they have to take their helmet off, they have to have a registered and street legal car, they have to drive their race tires on the street, and they have to not drive like a hooligan to get back in line.

The idea would be to have the staging lanes in the upper lot with the running group on the path, thus answering your points 2 and 2a, pedestrians can walk on grass so that's not a big issue. As far as 2b, in order to run cdc all cars are supposed to be licensed and insured for street use. You also don't have to take off your helmet to drive on the street, all though people may look at you funny, other wise motorcycles would have issues.

The last point you bring up however is very valid, people would have to control their driving and there would need to be a way to enforce and monitor this. However we already have this traffic, with staging and exiting the course, but it would be one car at a time all day long vs. a large group at once.

I think the biggest thing is finding out if we can use the path everything else is a minor detail.

[wrathe74]

Regarding Harry Grove Stadium access path - that's thinking outside the box! I know I drove down it once or twice while setting up as an organizer. I think Ted or Richard gave me some gruff.

That seriously is a brilliant idea! We could even switch up stop/start then (well, maybe).

-Ed O

The path has a couple issues:

1) Pedestrian safety
2) It is narrow and may only support one staging lane
2a) Even if it supports two rows of cars, we could only have 2 staging lanes or 1 staging lane and one exit/return lane.
2b) If it can only support 1 row of cars, that means participants need to return to the staging lane using the public street. This means they have to take their helmet off, they have to have a registered and street legal car, they have to drive their race tires on the street, and they have to not drive like a hooligan to get back in line.

The idea would be to have the staging lanes in the upper lot with the running group on the path, thus answering your points 2 and 2a, pedestrians can walk on grass so that's not a big issue. As far as 2b, in order to run cdc all cars are supposed to be licensed and insured for street use. You also don't have to take off your helmet to drive on the street, all though people may look at you funny, other wise motorcycles would have issues.

The last point you bring up however is very valid, people would have to control their driving and there would need to be a way to enforce and monitor this. However we already have this traffic, with staging and exiting the course, but it would be one car at a time all day long vs. a large group at once.

I think the biggest thing is finding out if we can use the path everything else is a minor detail.

1 lane of cars would probably be better for flow for using the access road. Have the 3 heats. Heat 1 runs, heat 3 works, heat 2 is prepping....then just run them in round-robin format. The heats would be a little larger, but it would give everyone time to drive around the public roads safely and slowly. I know this isn't exactly the family mixin' atmosphere, and would make everyone in heat 1 have a little longer day, but I believe it would be more relaxed overall.

As for pedestrian safety...I would think the staging lanes at Bowie were more of a concern. The only issue I see here is if we get lots of 'passer-bys' who may not be accustomed to cars on the access path.

Also, communication from upper and lower lots would need to be improved and have a couple organizers working the top lot making sure things run smooth and timely.


Just my 2 1/2 cents

[bugman1964]

yeah we need to start sending up a walkie talkie with registration in the morning anyways.

[Bigbacon]

for pedestrians, all you need are a few signs at the top and bottom of the lane that give them instructions on where to walk.

[ferris]

We already use the public streets to change heats, so people should understand how to properly drive on the public streets. This format would force people to drive on the streets even more. Again, people drive their trailers r-comps/cars on the public streets here to switch heats, but I do see the concern.

I feel like if we are permitted to use the access road, its worth a shot especially for a TNT. I wonder what the more competitive people would think however. Typically between runs there are several people who are scrambling to check tire pressures or spray down their tires. If they had to drive on the public streets to get back into line this would increase the tire checking frenzy.

[hepcatz]

Does the path have a couple barricade poles down by the lower lot? Is there access at the upper lot onto the path without jumping the curbing/sidewalk?

[bugman1964]

The barricades by the lower lot used to have a cable on them, but the cable has been gone there for quite some time now. As far as the upper lot there is access to the road on the side of the lot closest to the church.

[ButtDyno]

P.S. My old Evo was completely equipped to handle the surface at Summit, but I am still uncomfortable about it and I wouldn't bring the 7 to it - can't afford crashing it and I am chicken... (If I am not comfortable to drive 10/10 I wouldn't race)

As someone who was running a reduced schedule this year but should be able to run more events next year... I will probably never run at Summit because of this. The whole point of autox IMHO is to not have to hold back, and like other people I feel like it's only a matter of time before something really bad happens there. I think the worst case at Summit (rollover) is definitely worse than the worst case using the lower lot at Bowie (jacked suspension/wheel).

Looking forward to coming out more next year tho!

[evolicious]

1. SP
2. SP
3. SP
4. SP

J/k....Definitely SP is my favorite, then frederick, bowie, and then VA.
The reasons for VA being last are due to the drive there and the course layouts (too tight for my liking). The surface there however is fantastic. I can almost gauruntee that Va will be the events that I won't show up to.

I like frederick because of the layouts.....blast, turn, blast, turn, etc.
bowie- technical, some fast parts, fun elevation change, challenging surface.

[bellykat]

.....blast, turn, blast, turn, etc.

your car?

Mostly blast....

Put foot down. Prepare to swallow own teeth.

[flohtingPoint]

I'd also like to add that we could use more "drivers ed" portions. I loved it from Woodbridge.

[MazdaSC]

1. Hylton - nice surface, close to me, lots of potential! I hope we can get a lot more dates here next year.
2. Bowie - a bit of a hike for me, and dirty, but there *is* a pretty good amount of grip if you stay on course. I also like the fact that it's an odd shaped lot w/ elevation changes...makes for some cool course designs.
3. HGS - too small, too rough, crappy grid options, etc...but I still kinda like it for some reason. The short technical courses are a nice change-up and it's by far the best for spectating.
4. Summit Point - let's see....short wheelbase, high HP, RWD....yup.... I *hate* summit point. It kills me to say that. I was so excited that we were going to be able to run at that location...close to me...huge area....tons of course possibilities...other motorsports stuff going on all the time. It had all the potential to be the perfect venue. Been there 2X in the Cobra and will probably never go back unless it's in the Miata.

[edit] - I've only run Waldorf once, with AI, and it was awesome!

I pretty much agree with what wade is saying about the lots and would also like to mention the Maryland State Police Training Center in Sykesville, MD best autocross lot in the area short of FedEX. The BMW and Porsche clubs use this location.

[Jim Harris]

So just to summarize, as neutrally as possible:

Bowie--good. Small; surface OK, but not great.

Hylton--good. Small; surface great.

Harry Grove--mixed opinion, but mostly favorable. Small; surface pretty crummy.

Summit Point Washington--even more mixed opinion, popular with four wheel drive and front wheel drive contituencies, rear wheel drive constutuency likely to stay away, except for some small bore folks. Possible safety concerns.

Waldorf--untried but promising venue; other clubs like it. Largest lot, could do National style layout there.

Sykesville--untried but promising venue; other clubs like it. Medium sized, at best, but good surface.

All have different degrees of geographic appeal to different people, naturally.

Jim

[dannykao]

I have to say having running them all at least twice except Woodbridge, the best lot in my opinion is Blue Crabs (Waldorf). Grid on the access road, largest lot (based on usefulness), clean, big bathrooms. It's about an hour drive from Gaithersburg. With some creative CDC setup you might get close to 50 seconds out of the course.

Sykesville is a little small, but it's still larger than Frederick. You can grid and paddock in another lot which will give you a maximum size course. It's about 50 minutes from Gaithersburg.

In my humble opinion, both lots are better autox lots than the normal CDC lots. Depends on where you are it might be little far to drive to the event, but you should be able to put up a different course every time, especially at Waldorf.

[sti robot]

Hylton - awesome location, big enough, awesome surface, bathroom snafu at the first one (not a biggie).

Summit - also awesome, a bit of a drive, yes the RWD guys don't like it, but that is why we use a variety of surfaces/conditions/locations.

[saint_foo]

P.S. My old Evo was completely equipped to handle the surface at Summit, but I am still uncomfortable about it and I wouldn't bring the 7 to it - can't afford crashing it and I am chicken... (If I am not comfortable to drive 10/10 I wouldn't race)

As someone who was running a reduced schedule this year but should be able to run more events next year... I will probably never run at Summit because of this. The whole point of autox IMHO is to not have to hold back, and like other people I feel like it's only a matter of time before something really bad happens there. I think the worst case at Summit (rollover) is definitely worse than the worst case using the lower lot at Bowie (jacked suspension/wheel).

Looking forward to coming out more next year tho!

Personally, I think all you seasoned autoxers are mixing up not being able to drive 10/10 at SP as holding back. It's basically the same as running FedEx in the rain. You need to learn self-restraint. It teaches you how to drive your car in all kinds of conditions, not just ideal ones.

Then again, this is coming from the guy who drove an MR2 turbo in the winter snow w/ Toyo T1-S, the last snowfall in my Miata w/ R1Rs.... I think it's great practice in driver skill as long as the conditions don't change for drivers throughout the day, like drying conditions for the afternoon after a wet morning. Not fair for PAXing.

[Claff]

FWIW I see that the NCC BMW club is going to run a couple events at Waldorf Blue Crabs in 2010. Such a nice lot and fifteen minutes from the driveway! I like where this is going.

[dannykao]

Personally, I think all you seasoned autoxers are mixing up not being able to drive 10/10 at SP as holding back. It's basically the same as running FedEx in the rain. You need to learn self-restraint. It teaches you how to drive your car in all kinds of conditions, not just ideal ones.

.

I am not arguing, but simply express a feeling of mine:

Not driving 10/10 is not a "skill" issue, it's a money issue. I can't drive "my 10/10" at Summit because I am afraid of crashing and hurt my car or myself due to run-offs not large enough that "I" am comfortable with. To give you a couple of example:

1st BMW event at Summit, I co-drove a friend's RX8. He ended up in the middle of the 2nd circle buried in mud. It took 7 guys to drag him out.


Same event, A 5 series ended up in the bottom of the hill near the middle circle just a few feet from the parking area after it spun off the course. I have a picture but I don't have permission to post that one.

In both cases, the RX8 guy is just plain crazy; but I don't think the 5 series guy is that experienced in autox. An experienced autox guy usually knows what the limit is.

It's definitely not a knock on anybody. CDC puts up a nice event and I run it because it's fun to run. I think it's fun to run at Summit and I will probably run there and just be careful in the spots that I know it's slippery. The issues for me is the surface is inconsistent, and at the spots that are slippery there are not enough run-off areas.

My 7 and most of the Factory 5's have a large oil pan that are only few inches away from the ground. Both Ford 5.0 and 4.6 motors have to have a large oil pan on the bottom and you drop the engine in the chassis first, then bolt on the pan after from the bottom when you install the motor, and so is my puny 2.0L Zetec. When a RX8 goes off the circle into the mud, it's just dirty and nasty; when a Cobra or 7 goes into that circle, the edge of the circle might tore then entire oil pan off, or knock the engine off the frame. It's just too much money or risk for me if something goes wrong.



I am sure not too many people enjoyed to drive in the rain at Fedex or anywhere else; unless you are a mudder, it's really not much fun. I would run at Fedex in the rain for points, and it's a pain in the butt to drive shifter in the rain because it takes hours to clean the kart up afterwards and no one likes it. In most cases when it rains, the course is drastically simplified and more run-off areas are giving for safety. But at SP, there is only so much you can do.

I am not defending anything, just express a personal opinion.

[edfooliu]

Personally, I think all you seasoned autoxers are mixing up not being able to drive 10/10 at SP as holding back. It's basically the same as running FedEx in the rain. You need to learn self-restraint. It teaches you how to drive your car in all kinds of conditions, not just ideal ones.

When I say 10/10ths I mean the maximum potential of the car for the given the conditions and the surface. The limits are obviously lower on a looser surface, and that's not the issue--not for me, at least. I don't have any problems with driving in the rain (in a car, I love it) or on a crappy surface precisely because of what you said. It's very instructive, and it's a fun challenge in car control.

So when I say I have to hold back at SP, I don't mean I dislike having to dial down entry speed to a given element or giving up lateral Gs for a given radius corner. That's not the issue. The issue is that I'm not comfortable pushing the car to those lower limits because the penalty for screwing up can potentially be dire. I look at the line I'm taking, and if I truly want to balance the car on the edge of its abilities, it's walking a tightrope with landscaping trips on either side. I see the line, I know the car can do it, but I don't go for it because a spin there would mean going off the hill. If i'm not comfortable really testing the limit on that surface, it loses its instructive value as well. I don't learn anything about how to drive a car if I have to hold back and stay well under the limit of available grip for fear of wrecking it.(and car/drivetrain doesn't matter...I'm saying this from the perspective of running my Civic there a few times and having some real pucker moments)

At FedEx (or Waldorf, or most configurations of Woodbridge, Bowie, etc) in the rain, I can still drive 10/10ths because the worst-case penalty for losing the car or screwing up or slipping off the brake pedal or a freak tire blowout is cones or off-course. Conceivably, the course could be designed badly and put some elements near light poles/barriers/curbs, but if that happens, I'd have the same complaint that I have about SP. The problem with SP is that course configuration is HIGHLY constrained by the unpaved areas of the skidpad. There's only so much you can do with course design to avoid the high-risk elements near those unpaved areas and around the perimeter of the skidpad.

I'm NOT saying CDC _shouldn't_ run there. If the risk is tolerable for an individual, they should enjoy the uniqueness of SP in the schedule. For me, I prefer venues where the runoff is sufficient to safely account for huge driver mistakes or mechanical failure, and I think that's what some folks are getting at when they express concern about safety at SP.

[Gonz]

Personally, I think all you seasoned autoxers are mixing up not being able to drive 10/10 at SP as holding back. It's basically the same as running FedEx in the rain. You need to learn self-restraint. It teaches you how to drive your car in all kinds of conditions, not just ideal ones.

I'm NOT saying CDC _shouldn't_ run there. If the risk is tolerable for an individual, they should enjoy the uniqueness of SP in the schedule. For me, I prefer venues where the runoff is sufficient to safely account for huge driver mistakes or mechanical failure, and I think that's what some folks are getting at when they express concern about safety at SP.

No matter what the location, each driver has the responsibility to drive his car in a controlled manner. I say this in reference to comment that the design has to "account for huge driver mistakes."

If we see someone driving unsafely, I trust they would be red flagged. But truly if the driver keeps his foot in the gas 50 feet beyond the braking point, or makes some other "huge driver error", what course design can prevent that ?

Bowie has curbs a sandy lot & light poles. Frederick has light poles & a grid 25 feet off the racing line. I would rather run into "dirt" at SP than to hit a light pole at Bowie or HGS.

Additionally Summit Point has medical personnel stationed just a few feet off the surface to respond immediatley to any incident.

[edfooliu]

No matter what the location, each driver has the responsibility to drive his car in a controlled manner.

Right, and that's all I'm really trying to say. It's not the club's responsibility to prevent everyone from driving over their ability. I'm just not confident enough in my ability to stay on the limit on the fastest line at SP, and I feel the runoff at SP is insufficient for the sort of mistakes I'm liable to make. Since the responsibility is indeed mine, the safest choice for me is simply not to run there. It's an individual decision.

[flohtingPoint]

Personally, I think all you seasoned autoxers are mixing up not being able to drive 10/10 at SP as holding back. It's basically the same as running FedEx in the rain. You need to learn self-restraint. It teaches you how to drive your car in all kinds of conditions, not just ideal ones.

I'm NOT saying CDC _shouldn't_ run there. If the risk is tolerable for an individual, they should enjoy the uniqueness of SP in the schedule. For me, I prefer venues where the runoff is sufficient to safely account for huge driver mistakes or mechanical failure, and I think that's what some folks are getting at when they express concern about safety at SP.

No matter what the location, each driver has the responsibility to drive his car in a controlled manner. I say this in reference to comment that the design has to "account for huge driver mistakes."

If we see someone driving unsafely, I trust they would be red flagged. But truly if the driver keeps his foot in the gas 50 feet beyond the braking point, or makes some other "huge driver error", what course design can prevent that ?

Bowie has curbs a sandy lot & light poles. Frederick has light poles & a grid 25 feet off the racing line. I would rather run into "dirt" at SP than to hit a light pole at Bowie or HGS.

Additionally Summit Point has medical personnel stationed just a few feet off the surface to respond immediatley to any incident.

These are all great points, but on the flip side of this, at Fred/Harry, you REALLY have to try to pole it. I came in one run at Harry stupid hot in the Rolla next to the light post, spun and came no where near it (gave John a good fright though). The tarmac at these places is 10x more grippy than SP, allowing for more hold and more control regarding obstacles. At Summit it is much more easy easy to pit your car in a RWD vehicle as the tarmac is very unpredictable.

[The_Bishop]

I'm going to put my hat in the ring for HGS - basically for the positives that everyone else has mentioned. I agree also on the not so positives. But on the whole, I like it b/c it's the closest to my home and haven't been able to run with the club at events in Bowie, FedEx, Waldorf, etc. - that's just too far for me. I also think that HGS is a good venue for beginners - it's where I cut my teeth, and you can't beat the spectator area for studying other drivers. I'm very interested in the development of some of the ideas expressed here for variations at this venue. As for the surface, well we can only hope there's money in the maintenance budget somewhere down the road.

Summit - love the drive there, love the atmosphere, don't like the surface. I wanna say I just purchased my Subaru to run at Summit, but I didn't. But, you can bet that I will be prepared to do so if we return there in 2010 and the dates meet my schedule. The elise will stay at home in lieu of some AWD quickness.

Due to personal reasons, I wasn't able to run in 2009 as much as I would have liked, but everytime I do, I have a blast with CDC.

Thanks organizers, for making it happen! Have a great Holiday season!!

- Allen.