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[Spaz_Attack]

Stop watching initial D too lol.

But how can I when there is stuff like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYoLgKHF8kU
(Sorry Mike and Jim, your cars are still sweet)

I do agree that AutoX is all about the driver, tires + suspension (they should work together), brakes and then power and other stuff.

[eage8]

haha

the only way to watch initial D is in Text Mode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYoLgKHF8kU&textp=fool

[flohtingPoint]

(Sorry Mike and Jim, your cars are still sweet)

No offense taken, I hate Initial D and such. I'm not a big cartoon guy anyway.

[WRX11]

i know i'm not an autocross noob here, i've been running for 3 years, it is just that usually if you look back at my times, i'm closer to the evo's and STI's, this is the first time in a long while i was this far back in the field. i know i'm not a contender for FTD, i was just shocked at how much faster a heavier car with considerably less whp was compared to me. i know enough about cars to understand that the drive train and suspension geometry make a huge difference, as well as the tires, but it just seemed strange to me that the observed acceleration of the STI's coming out of the corners was blowing my mind on the sidelines. particularly the black STI's in heat 1's second run. i just thought it was stellar, i know they are rated at 300 bhp from the factory, i was just shocked that only 225 whp make it to the wheels, and it still moves like that.

and as i reflect further and believe me, i am listening (or reading) to what you are saying. i also forgot how it took me time to get used to how the car behaved different when i put the LSD, supercharger, and summer tires on, and my first autocross with these three huge performance altering changes had less than impressive results as i needed time to get the hang of these things right off the bat. so i probably need some time to adjust to the huge different in my power curve, and once i have a new set of tires and rear sway, start probing for the new limits of the car.

That STI is not stock, nor is the silver one.

Having worked the start gate a few times, I can tell you they made some differences by starting off hard.

[wrathe74]

AutoXing is all about suspension, tires and driver.

In reverse order

Yeah AJ drove my car on Saturday and Sunday and posted times a lot faster than mine both times...in fact my fastest raw time for sunday (@ FedEx) was 64.626 and his was 61.017. Same car, same tires, same HP.....difference = driver.

AJ is smoother around corners, then me. Looking back at our videos you'll see my lines are off slightly, meaning I have to slow down more and do some error correction.

[thehammer]

HAHAHA at the text mode,

i just wasted 5 minutes of my lunch distracted by my third monitor displaying a (cartooon) race. what the crap.

[draxcaliber]

i know initial d is not accurate, but at the basis for all the stunts drifting and racing, there are some actual factual physics that are just exaggerated for climatic action story telling purposes like just about all entertainment, especially cartoons. but it gave me a good understanding about racing lines, cornering, drive train dynamics in relation to handling, cornering forces etc.

the TRD springs and struts are actually quality pieces. as far as all the other available lowering springs out there for the tC, these have the best drop and increase in spring rates for the tC. other one actually lower the tC so much it is bad for the suspension geometry and hinders handling. (so i have read on forums from driver's who autocross their tC's and understand the cars suspension better than i.) also, most TRD parts are actually re-badged aftermarket parts manufactured to TRD specifications. the springs i believe are from eibach, the struts i think are KYB, the big brake kit is made by stoptech, the supercharger was made by vortech, the LSD was made by quaife etc. so TRD parts aren't bad parts, they're alittle expensive, but they are quality pieces meeting OEM standards, and are well researched to work with the cars. are they the best, ofcourse not, but they are a huge improvement over stock.

don't worry though. while i'll still have my all season tires this saturday, i should have summer tires by the next event, and i'll push my entry speeds higher and get some tire squealing going on the turns.

[edfooliu]

i know initial d is not accurate, but at the basis for all the stunts drifting and racing, there are some actual factual physics that are just exaggerated for climatic action story telling purposes like just about all entertainment, especially cartoons. but it gave me a good understanding about racing lines, cornering, drive train dynamics in relation to handling, cornering forces etc.

the TRD springs and struts are actually quality pieces. as far as all the other available lowering springs out there for the tC, these have the best drop and increase in spring rates for the tC. other one actually lower the tC so much it is bad for the suspension geometry and hinders handling. (so i have read on forums from driver's who autocross their tC's and understand the cars suspension better than i.) also, most TRD parts are actually re-badged aftermarket parts manufactured to TRD specifications. the springs i believe are from eibach, the struts i think are KYB, the big brake kit is made by stoptech, the supercharger was made by vortech, the LSD was made by quaife etc. so TRD parts aren't bad parts, they're alittle expensive, but they are quality pieces meeting OEM standards, and are well researched to work with the cars. are they the best, ofcourse not, but they are a huge improvement over stock.

don't worry though. while i'll still have my all season tires this saturday, i should have summer tires by the next event, and i'll push my entry speeds higher and get some tire squealing going on the turns.

srsly, <3 inisharu d. One of these days there will be an autocross with a gutter on the inside line, and then we'll see who's laughing.


can't say i know a thing about the quality of TRD parts...but the bigger 'problem', as others have said, is they're not really aggressive enough for autocross. Quick google says the fronts are 168lb/in, and assuming the motion ratio of most mcstruts are close to 1, that's probably way, waaay too low a wheel rate. Just for giggles--and without buying more parts--I'd stiffen the front bar as much as you can (yes, I know it's a FWD... if you want an explanation, PM me since Jason might murder me if I make him listen to it again).

But the car as it stands has some time left to give, and going "ballz to the wall" every run will probably net you a second or two right off the bat. Watching your videos, I have to echo what a couple guys have said... it's too smooth, and you never see the car upset or hear the anguished cries of all-seasons begging for mercy. to me, that says you're not driving up to the limit or even exploring it enough to learn where it is. brake deeper, brake less, put power on earlier... repeat until the car _really_ protests and you sail wide into a cone wall.

IHMO the quickest way to do figure out where the driver is... beg, plead, and bribe someone who's consistently faster to drive your car and ride along. If they magically find a couple seconds, then there's your answer--and you'll probably instantly gain some time just emulating them. Works for me every time.

[draxcaliber]

yeah, if you can, PM me about how setting the front sway bar to the stiffer setting would help my times. i'd be interested in learning the theory (or principle) behind it.

I think the other part of why my times were slower is because when i originally started autocrossing, i started with all season tires, and because i was young(er) and stupid, i would drive like an @$$hole all the time, but i had a very good sense of how much and when my tires would exceed their grip, and i could infact count on it for my desired cornering. then when i got my summer tires, BFgoodrich KDW's, they didn't slide like the all seasons, and they didn't communicate their handling limits to me very well, and once their limits were exceeded, they take too long to recover. so i adapted my style to them and i gradually learned their limits by driving slower and working my way faster and faster to find their limits. I think i was doing this with my allseason tires, driving easy and slowly trying to get faster, rather than going for it, and seeing when they lose it and how long they take to recover. have to say, on my final run of the morning when i came around too fast before turning for the stop garage, they did pretty good redirecting the car.

[bellykat]

I'm going to interject for a moment here to say that I always think that "DRAxcaliber" is Drake and "HEPcatz" is Hepler.

Imagine my confusion during this thread.

[BugBomb]

The front swaybar is pretty simple. On a MacPherson strut suspension, typically the front wheels will lose negative camber as the suspension compresses. So your outside cornering wheel is losing an important alignment angle as the car leans onto it. There are several tricks to combat this, but one easy way is to limit the suspension movement. You can either stiffen the springs/struts or stiffen the swaybar. The swaybar allows you to keep a softer suspension, but still limit the suspensions movement under hard cornering. We use this trick on the SUXASS. It has one of the larger front swaybars available.

[BugBomb]

The results on google documents have received many updates this evening. I will take any more requested updates Friday and then we will submit them as official results on CDC's website.

[AJ_RDR_Civic]

i know initial d is not accurate, but at the basis for all the stunts drifting and racing, there are some actual factual physics that are just exaggerated for climatic action story telling purposes like just about all entertainment, especially cartoons. but it gave me a good understanding about racing lines, cornering, drive train dynamics in relation to handling, cornering forces etc.

the TRD springs and struts are actually quality pieces. as far as all the other available lowering springs out there for the tC, these have the best drop and increase in spring rates for the tC. other one actually lower the tC so much it is bad for the suspension geometry and hinders handling. (so i have read on forums from driver's who autocross their tC's and understand the cars suspension better than i.) also, most TRD parts are actually re-badged aftermarket parts manufactured to TRD specifications. the springs i believe are from eibach, the struts i think are KYB, the big brake kit is made by stoptech, the supercharger was made by vortech, the LSD was made by quaife etc. so TRD parts aren't bad parts, they're alittle expensive, but they are quality pieces meeting OEM standards, and are well researched to work with the cars. are they the best, ofcourse not, but they are a huge improvement over stock.

don't worry though. while i'll still have my all season tires this saturday, i should have summer tires by the next event, and i'll push my entry speeds higher and get some tire squealing going on the turns.

I'm not saying TRD stuff is not quality, just the stuff they sell to the general public is not worth the money in performance aspects. IE: their springs. Like Ed said, the rates are low, probably pretty progressive and probably need to be switched around. Just doing a quick search, I found the TRD spring/shock combo for about $700. From what it sounds like, the struts are probably similar to KYB GR2's. If it's all just rebadged stuff, you could have saved a couple hundred bucks going with the other name brand stuff. Looks like you can get Koni Yellows and Ground-Controls with custom rates for around $1200 which I'm actually a bit surprised it's that much for this car. That's very reasonably priced compared to other coilover brands offered for this car, which don't match up to Koni/GC's reputation...I am a bit surprised the TRD coilver kit is just a tid bit more, $1300, but I would go more agressive with the spring rates than they are using(TRD=250front/400rear).

[draxcaliber]

the answer to that is a yes and no.

while TRD does rebadge the parts from other companies. part of the agreement for the rebadging is that said aftermarket company is not allowed to sell their own version of the product for that car for X amount of years. I know this because we had a guy that worked for stoptech that was on a scion forum, and told us how stoptech wasn't allowed to sell a big brake kit for the scion, since TRD bought all the rights to it from them. although, since the tC shared the same brakes with the celica GT-S, any big brake kit that fit the celica could fit the tC. quaife only in the past year was able to release LSD as their own for slightly cheaper than TRD.

while the TRD parts cost alittle more, they also combined with the cars existing manufacturers warranty. so you could add and LSD, springs, struts, supercharger and big brake kit, or trd coil-overs and so long as they were bought new and installed by a toyota dealership, you wouldn't have any warranty problems. (ps, i am aware of the magnussion moss act, so nobody needs to fill me in). oh, and the TRD coilovers were released after i got my springs and struts already.

supposedly, in addition to the limited production sway bar i am getting, they're also going to release custom coil-overs based on dan gardner's tC's also. he uses some really expensive coil-overs. i think they were something that started with an "M" like motrons or something. which are UBER expensive. way too expensive for most tC owners. so instead, they're going to release special edition progress adjustible coil-overs with customized valves and springs for more aggressive performance. less street oriented.

[eage8]

Why are you so set on getting TRD parts?

[bugman1964]

Why are you so set on getting TRD parts?

I'm wondering this as well.
I dont think any one question the quality of the trd stuff, I know they a good pieces other wise they wouldnt warranty them. But our point is they are designed for the common person on the street not a true race application. The spring rates and to soft and the valve rates are also probably to slow, all in attempt to give a "sportier" drive on the road with out being harsh.

[draxcaliber]

Why are you so set on getting TRD parts?

i'm not. but since the tC was the first car i ever had (after my ford explorer) and the first car i customized and raced, i took the safe route, especially since it is my daily driver. now that i've put just about every TRD part on the car, and experienced the difference, i am replacing them as i outgrow or wear them out.

trd supercharger is now a turbotoyotas turbo kit. trd rear sway bar became hotchkis front and rear sway bars, and now i'm going to put on a newer hardercore progress rear sway bar. i have stop tech stage II brakes now, i might upgrade them to a wilwood big brake kit and powerslot rear big brake upgrade, but to do that, i'll have to change from OEM size 17's to 18's to clear the rotors. but before that, i want to look at coil-overs and corner balancing and more aggressive alignment since the factory alignment is very mild.

[ferris]

Why are you so set on getting TRD parts?

I completely understand ... I only buy parts from one source because of the quality and performance that I have grown to love ...


Craigslist has every part I could ever want at a price even I can afford ...

[matt.baird]

Alignment and tires should make a pretty big difference, moreso than most of the other planned mods you have. Many factory FWD alignments are set at 0* negative camber in the front. I know it chews up the outside of my front tires pretty good.

I have ingalls enginnering camber bolts on the way and plan on getting realigned at ptuning in time for CDC Event #3.

[bugman1964]

Alignment and tires should make a pretty big difference, moreso than most of the other planned mods you have. Many factory FWD alignments are set at 0* negative camber in the front. I know it chews up the outside of my front tires pretty good.

I have ingalls enginnering camber bolts on the way and plan on getting realigned at ptuning in time for CDC Event #3.

This is will probably make the largest change.

[bugman1964]

Unless you plan on doing a lot of track racing I wouldnt worry about upgrading the brakes. A larger brake is mostly for heat absorption which in auto cross you dont need. A good quality set of pads like axxis ultimates or hawks will be much more cost effective. Let alone going to a larger wheel has multiple negatives.

[flohtingPoint]

Why are you so set on getting TRD parts?

I'm wondering this as well.
I dont think any one question the quality of the trd stuff, I know they a good pieces other wise they wouldnt warranty them. But our point is they are designed for the common person on the street not a true race application. The spring rates and to soft and the valve rates are also probably to slow, all in attempt to give a "sportier" drive on the road with out being harsh.

This is a head scratcher. I have two TRD parts on both the Corolla and the MR2, both are the same parts, both bought used and those are the only two TRD parts I would buy; Header and short shifter.

[eage8]

This is a head scratcher. I have two TRD parts on both the Corolla and the MR2, both are the same parts, both bought used and those are the only two TRD parts I would buy; Header and short shifter.

I have a TRD short shifter too, only mines JDM hotness so it's bent towards the passenger seat...

[eage8]

i'm not. but since the tC was the first car i ever had (after my ford explorer) and the first car i customized and raced, i took the safe route, especially since it is my daily driver. now that i've put just about every TRD part on the car, and experienced the difference, i am replacing them as i outgrow or wear them out.

trd supercharger is now a turbotoyotas turbo kit. trd rear sway bar became hotchkis front and rear sway bars, and now i'm going to put on a newer hardercore progress rear sway bar. i have stop tech stage II brakes now, i might upgrade them to a wilwood big brake kit and powerslot rear big brake upgrade, but to do that, i'll have to change from OEM size 17's to 18's to clear the rotors. but before that, i want to look at coil-overs and corner balancing and more aggressive alignment since the factory alignment is very mild.

big brake kits are a waste of time. your stock brakes are probably oversized as it is to try and fill up your massive stock wheels...

My rx-7 brakes fit in 15" wheels and no one ever replaces them for track use.

Alignment and tires should make a pretty big difference, moreso than most of the other planned mods you have. Many factory FWD alignments are set at 0* negative camber in the front. I know it chews up the outside of my front tires pretty good.

I have ingalls enginnering camber bolts on the way and plan on getting realigned at ptuning in time for CDC Event #3.

look into caster plates. it's like camber... but better

[matt.baird]

look into caster plates. it's like camber... but better

Its a Hyundai Accent. As far as I know no one makes any cool parts like that for a 3rd gen Accent. But hey I can get carbon fiber door trim. I have to make lemonade out of lemons here!