Suggestions for 2011

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hufflepuff
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by hufflepuff »

Maybe its a good idea to save money and not run slicks if street tires are starting to be indexed more favorable.

A big thanks to all of the CDC organizers for putting on a great season!

I feel like street tires for small bore makes sense. If not, index it between street tires and r-comps/slicks.

As far as ridiculously wide tires, i sometimes calculate tire-to-weight ratios, based on the vehicle's front end weight and the section width of its front tires. you could do the same for the rear as well if you know the static weight distribution. I calculated that i'd need 305mm front tires on my SRT-4 to have the same tire-to-weight ratio as my brother's 205mm front tire CRX... maybe an index could be created by just dividing the vehicle weight by its average tire width.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by FredK »

My Miata and Cobra both weigh 2340, I have 335's on the Cobra and 225's on the miata, the Miata turns better.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by flohtingPoint »

What's the wheel base on both Fred? I know first gen Miata's like yours have the same wheelbase as my Corolla, but what does the Cobra have?
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by FredK »

Wheelbase is within 1/2" 90"s. That why I got the Miata same, but different.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

FredK wrote:My Miata and Cobra both weigh 2340, I have 335's on the Cobra and 225's on the miata, the Miata turns better.
Fred
Easy solution......run 225's on the Cobra next year. ;)
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by eage8 »

FredK wrote:My Miata and Cobra both weigh 2340, I have 335's on the Cobra and 225's on the miata, the Miata turns better.
Fred
The miata doesn't have an iron block V8 sitting on the front tires :)

I think you should "fix" the miata ;)
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by WRX11 »

Dan133 wrote:I personally would eat Eggs Florentine and drink latte's only if Ted served them.
What uniform would you like him to serve in? :lol:
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

eage8 wrote:
FredK wrote:My Miata and Cobra both weigh 2340, I have 335's on the Cobra and 225's on the miata, the Miata turns better.
Fred
The miata doesn't have an iron block V8 sitting on the front tires :)
Funny thing is, the Cobra has LESS weight on the front than the miata! I don't know what Fred's is, but mine is about 52-53% rear bias. I'd guess his is more like 54% since he has IRS (heavier).
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by kyle.bowker »

phranquelynn wrote:Drops. Seems like there's a lot of effort that goes into keeping score and time. However there's only a handful really competing for year end trophy. In small bore, there's only 5-6 of us who actually made it to 10+ events (less than that you would have a zero count for some events b/c of not making enough events). So, why not open it up to more people by having more drops? I think it would actually keep more people coming back. Like AJ said in the other thread, there's a lot of events to make. And they're spread out from Woodbridge to Winchester. That's a huge drive. Can we make attendance more reasonable like 1/2 events dropped. I think the ones who want to go to all of them like me, Dan, Wade, Fred, Don, Larry, Ben, Mike etc would still do so. However for those who have made 3-4, they might be inclined to make a couple more to qualify for year end trophies.
CDC drops 6 events. Not 1 or 2. SIX. If you want to win you have to show up to as many events as possible regardless of how many drops there are. It's as simple as that. I'm sure some math whiz could figure out the optimal number of drops to maximize participation (i.e. club revenue) over the duration of the season but I highly doubt the number of drops at the end is a major determining factor for anyone deciding whether to participate or not, particularly on an ongoing basis. Laziness, cold, rain, sleep, interest level, other commitments, etc. play a much bigger role.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by FredK »

I think he said/meant drop half the events, not 1 or 2. I think very few people really care about the overall points. I did 5 small bore events for fun in my Miata, the rest in the Cobra, that pretty much insured I wouldn't do very well in either. Now FTD's that's another story. Both smallbore and index were pretty much decided by july and it didn't have an effect on attendance.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by hepcatz »

I agree with Fred & Kyle,

The folks that care about championship points will show up to most events regardless of drop number and the mast majority that do not care will not base their attendance around how many events are/are not dropped. I'd think you would want the drop number small. If too many drops, someone really talented could show up for just a couple events. For those like me who suck but show up a lot & try to be involved with the group, that would be demoralizing. :lol:
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by eage8 »

yeah, I already think the drops are a bit extreme already. you can't expect to not come to half the races and still win something... that's just dumb, and it does ruin it for people that do come every time.

If you drop half the events, there is going to be 1 person with all 100s... maybe 2.

If you want a trophy... you have to show up.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by hufflepuff »

FredK wrote:My Miata and Cobra both weigh 2340, I have 335's on the Cobra and 225's on the miata, the Miata turns better.
Fred
When I calculate tire to weight ratio, i take the front end weight divided by front tire width and vice versa for the rear.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by D_Eclipse9916 »

eage8 wrote:yeah, I already think the drops are a bit extreme already. you can't expect to not come to half the races and still win something... that's just dumb, and it does ruin it for people that do come every time.

If you drop half the events, there is going to be 1 person with all 100s... maybe 2.

If you want a trophy... you have to show up.
+1, there are a ton of drops, I think there were plenty enough for this season. But you also cant reduce it so that people who just show up win it.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by ButtDyno »

AJ_RDR_Civic wrote:Fred's car is not exactly a true XP car, just look at this years Pro Solo results :shock: So that index isn't exactly where it should be for his car lol.
Is Ryan's car a full prep STU car?

For that matter, the last time I talked to Don he was on non adjustable Bilsteins with springs that lower the car too much...
echan wrote:To clarify the food issue, we provide drinks free so that all our participants do not get dehydrated
I'm not sure that anyone ever accused Coke of being good for hydration :p

I'll reiterate my index suggestion to make any aftermarket springs be a 1.01, or 1.005. Should be easy to enforce and levels things out for folks who are running in a stock class or who don't want to have to go to really stiff springs for autox. Suspension is a modification that helps, like anything else and it seems worth factoring in to me.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by FredK »

fauxbra is running cheapass non adjustable bilstein monotubes as well.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by eage8 »

I would hardly call bilstein monotubes cheapass...
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by 03threefiftyz »

ButtDyno wrote:
AJ_RDR_Civic wrote:Fred's car is not exactly a true XP car, just look at this years Pro Solo results :shock: So that index isn't exactly where it should be for his car lol.
Is Ryan's car a full prep STU car?

For that matter, the last time I talked to Don he was on non adjustable Bilsteins with springs that lower the car too much...
echan wrote:To clarify the food issue, we provide drinks free so that all our participants do not get dehydrated
I'm not sure that anyone ever accused Coke of being good for hydration :p

I'll reiterate my index suggestion to make any aftermarket springs be a 1.01, or 1.005. Should be easy to enforce and levels things out for folks who are running in a stock class or who don't want to have to go to really stiff springs for autox. Suspension is a modification that helps, like anything else and it seems worth factoring in to me.
If you are going to make an index for springs then you have to make one for single, double, and triple adjustable shocks too.....

Before you know it my index would be 1.10...... :?
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by 03threefiftyz »

Might as well do adjustable sway bars too.....see if I can get to 1.12 :lol: .
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by Imprezive_04 »

ButtDyno wrote:
AJ_RDR_Civic wrote:Fred's car is not exactly a true XP car, just look at this years Pro Solo results :shock: So that index isn't exactly where it should be for his car lol.
Is Ryan's car a full prep STU car?

For that matter, the last time I talked to Don he was on non adjustable Bilsteins with springs that lower the car too much...
Barely a half prep STU car, still on the stock struts.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by D_Eclipse9916 »

Imprezive_04 wrote:
ButtDyno wrote:
AJ_RDR_Civic wrote:Fred's car is not exactly a true XP car, just look at this years Pro Solo results :shock: So that index isn't exactly where it should be for his car lol.
Is Ryan's car a full prep STU car?

For that matter, the last time I talked to Don he was on non adjustable Bilsteins with springs that lower the car too much...
Barely a half prep STU car, still on the stock struts.

I dont think many of us are fully SCCA prepped, I sure as hell am not. You guys better make street tires 1.605 cause we know their faster than r-comps despite all the real tests proving they are still 1.5-2 seconds behind an equivalent DOT r-comp. We should also make AWD at least 2.0 index and anyone that has an "F" in their name also gets 2.0 index *cough* (Fred, Don Fitzpatrick, Frank :lol: ). In all seriousness, not many of us are fully "prepped" cars. Fred isnt down to minimum weight and apparently isnt on crazy suspension, the m3 didnt have hugely wide tires and on a sub 700 suspension, Palmers on stock shocks and narrow tires. Not one of the "top 3" this season spent "all that much money or time" to be incredibly prepped, otherwise we would have MASSIVE tires, minimum weights, and maximum hp with crazy 3-5k suspensions. THANK GOD!! we dont. Oh ps- just for next season to get it out of the way, "my eyes got blinded by the sun, I drank the previous night, I broke a thumb (actually I did on the first run this past championshsip autocross), etc :P
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by ButtDyno »

03threefiftyz wrote:If you are going to make an index for springs then you have to make one for single, double, and triple adjustable shocks too.....

Before you know it my index would be 1.10...... :?
Sure, except this is simple, and takes into account that adding stiffer springs does really matter, especially when you're adding a lot of grip with aggressive tires. Probably more than, say, the difference between 2990 and 3010 lbs, or the difference between 145 whp and 155 whp.

Then again, if no one is maxing their car out to the rules, I don't see why we can say the 2010 index really needs any adjusting.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by dannykao »

How about run what your brung and forget about the index, but enforced an age handicap. Every year after 18 gets a 0.1 second reduction from your time.

Wait, that means Fred will win every event just like now. Nevermind... :?
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by AJ_RDR_Civic »

dannykao wrote:How about run what your brung and forget about the index, but enforced an age handicap. Every year after 18 gets a 0.1 second reduction from your time.

Wait, that means Fred will win every event just like now. Nevermind... :?
Funny you say that, Fred's given me the "age" excuse a couple times, even on the last T&T. But, like my girlfriend told him, "shouldn't that make you more experience and wiser??" haha.
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Re: Suggestions for 2011

Post by Jim Harris »

My random thoughts:

--It's the fact that CDC runs so many events--20 including the Test and Tunes, 15 for points, I think, more than anyone else runs--that every year ignites the discussion on the number drops to allow. SCCA runs seven for points and allows two drops. AI runs six and allows two drops, I believe. I'd be happy if CDC focused on a smaller number of events.

--I know there are budget considerations, but there ought to be room for a high quality lot from time to time, like Waldorf, or even MSP. The CDC course designers really do an excellent job making something out of Harry Grove and Bowie, but they're still very limiting. (BTW, if Winchester is not too far, why is Waldorf?)

--I agree that horsepower is unreasonably discounted in the index, and especially on CDC style lots and tight courses. On the other hand, I don't agree that R compounds are handicapped too severely. I wouldn't mind seeing the high grade ST tires like the Star Specs treated like the 100 series tires in the index. That would make more sense.

--If you have a small bore series, how about an American Iron series (Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, etc)? Indexed.

--CDC way overachieves on food. I'm so glad about that. It's such a nice touch, really.

Jim
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