Track Wheels

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ACoopeR
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Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:41 am

So as most of you guys know I am in the market for some new track wheels for the mini…

Wheel wise the research I did came to the conclusion that for non-forged wheels enkeis are one of the best… so I am considering another set of the same

CCW have a number of forged wheels in 15x8 (LM5, LM20, classic4, classic5) with custom offsets but I am not sure if the price difference 210/wheel -> 450/wheel is worth it and if they would clear the brakes even with the spacers. The top end looks like Volk TE37s for 530/wheel.

Given my experience, I will be shortening the duration for which I use a set unless I make the leap to forged so I did the math:
a set of volks = 2.5 sets of enkei
a set of ccws = 2.0 sets of enkei

It is a pretty intimidating bill, especially as it looks like I will have to spend ~3k on the other bits that broke, but I did not enjoy the ride and it could have been much worse which has me thinking I should just work more hours and get higher end wheels, but then I think of the hundreds of folks running non-forged wheels and not dying which makes me question if it really is money well spent...

Any thoughts?
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by jadams1217 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:39 pm

I've been happy with my Enkei RPF-1's so far. Not the prettiest wheel, but seems to be a pretty good balance of cheap/light/reliable.

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Re: Track Wheels

Post by v10climber » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:33 pm

I love CCWs but unless you need the custom offsets and builds they can provide I think they're pricey. They're not immune to fatigue either. Lee just replaced 4 centers on the CCWs he uses on the BSP BMW that Caitlin drove at Nats. A few of the spokes were cracked clean through. Of course these are run with 285 Hoosiers on them and supposedly CCW has revised the centers to prevent that. They will probably clear the R53 JCW brakes with a small spacer. But again they seem expensive when you consider the mini has tons of other options out there that just bolt right up.

What about 6ULs?

I would just get another set of Enkeis and start replacing them on a schedule. How long did you have your current set before the wheel failed. Are you sending it back to Enkei for analysis? It seems like a set of rims should be good for hundreds of hours of track time. At least 2 seasons. Are you running 15" rims?
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ericw » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:41 pm

Can't you make 15x9 fit? If you're spending a lot of money on wheels you should make 15x9 fit.

I would ask on the NASA forum or something where there are a lot of racers. There a lot of people racing on cast wheels though...

These are flow-formed outer like the pf01 but beefy spokes and kind of basic-looking, but interesting. And cheap. And they would be really easy to clean: http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Pe ... -1368.html
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:48 pm

I have looked at the enkei rpf-1s but their 15s have a very small barrel that doesn’t even clear my rear brakes.

I did look at the 6ULs too as I see tonnes of folks running those. I was even planning on test fitting Eric’s 15x7.5s and making a set of those my street/rain setup. I haven’t seen their 15x8 in stock anywhere right now though. They are cheap enough that scheduled replacement wouldn’t be too bad either but the intermittent stock would mean I would want to have at least 2 in hand at all times.

I was running 15x8 et35 enkei pf-01s they had ~50-70 hours and had been used with 225 rs-3 and 225 nt-01s. I will be reaching out to enkei as I think my surprise is justified given there were less than a year old. Especially as they are an F1 supplier so I would assume they aren’t clueless… My brakes are actually aftermarket wilwoods so fitment is a bit tighter than with the r53 jcw brakes.

That is a good point on the 15x9, I don’t really know how much work that would take to be honest, but is worth a shot. Once it is up and running I will have to come visit a kind soul and borrow their 15x9 for measuring. I was actually looking at good-win’s site yesterday and spotted those tracklites too. The part that pushed me away initially is that on their site they list the enkei pf-01 as their strongest cast wheel, though at that price I could get a few extra and just swap them more frequently.

I joking suggested rally wheels to a buddy and someone on another forum who races his mini w2w said after one of his TD wheels broke he swapped to rally wheels….
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by v10climber » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:22 am

I would call Enkei and give em hell. That's ridiculous that the wheel should fail after less than 100 on-track hours.

FWIW a 225 is about all you can really fit on a R53 without modifying fenders. An R56 can squeeze 235s.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:38 am

Yeah, once I find the correct contact info they will hear from me. Even the 225 do some self clearance in turn 1 on main and in the Karussell lol, its only the cheapo plastic part of the fender no metal :P

Some good news is that i found out a Canadian pro team that races minis uses 949 wheels.
We have had a few micro cracks on the Gen2 949 but never a failure. The new ones have so far been good. At the price they are we do not mind having to retire one as a garden-hose holder once in a while.....
I think the fact the mini is heavier and less evenly distributed than a miata/e30 just puts a real pounding into the front wheels.

Also heard from a person with a bbk similar to mine running 15x9 front and 15x8 rear, so that should be possible on my car too
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ericw » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:32 am

Image
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by hufflepuff » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:26 pm

I think the fact the mini is heavier and less evenly distributed than a miata/e30 just puts a real pounding into the front wheels.
:? This was my first thought... I could probably run the same wheels on my integra for many seasons, and since i have less weight and less power it probably wouldn't be much of an issue. The 949Racing 6UL came to my mind. Also, maybe your wheel failure was a fluke, a defect in the casting process. This doesn't say much for enkei and quality control, but perhaps just replacing that one wheel wouldn't be a big deal.

Another option is to look for wheels with a beefy spoke design? It would seem intuitive that a slightly heavier wheel with beefy spokes of the same casting quality will have greater strength and fatigue resistance than a thin spoke "super light" wheel. For instance, Enkei Compe? 15x8 and 4x100...

http://www.enkei.com/compe.shtml

Again, sorry to see the incident and i hope to see you out there next season.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:29 am

I have always wanted an original mini.... they are much lighter but tough to find here compared to when i was in the uk

Yeah before I was going for good weight/$ ratio now I am targeting strength/$ ratio. I couple of extra pounds won't be awful if it results in less fire etc lol
The thicker spokes on this: http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Pe ... -1368.html
compared to the 6ULs had me interested but i haven't heard of the company unlike 949 which is really popular

I am stopping by the shop on tuesday to see if the car might be ready to run the nasa fall finale with the street wheels, will be much slower but better than sitting at home wishing i was at the track!
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by hufflepuff » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:46 am

If you are able to make it I will be at the fall finale. I'm getting a check ride for my time trial license.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:25 am

Cool, I might come anyway even if the mini isn't ready to watch/hangout/bum rides. I will probably wait till I have more safety stuff before trying for TT, I figure I will push harder when there are prizes to be won... so will want a safer car just in case.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by jrgoldbach » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:58 pm

The 6UL has my vote. they took some serious hits in Lemons before finally bending a couple mm of runout...

I have been using the 15x8 as a street/autox wheel for 6 years now and still trust it completely. last year i picked up a used set of 15x9 and am using the crap out of them. as a plus, they all clear my 11.75" willwood setup with only 5mm spacer. i could use them without spacers, but that only leaves me with a little less than 3mm between the dynalite caliper and the wheel.

The reason they are out of stock everywhere is that they manufacture them in batches. just get your self on the pre-order and buy a set. you will not be disappointed and your confidence will quickly return.

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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:44 pm

Yeah i plan on bugging you and Eric for some test fitments once i have the mini back to double check clearances etc before i put in an order. looks like i should be getting the mini back tomorrow. just in time for the nasa fall finale, i will be on my 205 starspecs so not going as fast etc
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by hufflepuff » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:06 am

Glad to hear the mini is back together.

I just got done welding in a 6-point roll bar with a friend. I also upper the spring rates, changed my front camber, and added some oil pressure & temperature gauges. My kumhos are pretty shot, but i'm using this event for the TT check ride so i can start the first event next season ready-to-go. From your feedback on the NT01s, i have a set sitting in the basement for next season (picked them up brand new on craigslist for a good deal).

Look forward to seeing you tomorrow!
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by hufflepuff » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:44 am

So 949 racing wheels may not be invincible either:

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3118761

Maybe they were driving like jerks...? Also, this may be for the gen 2 wheels version. However, the consensus seems to be if you are running thin spoke, lightweight wheels on track, check them frequently!

Also check out Traklite Burn (strong mfr'ing process and 5 thick spokes) and Konig Spooled. They are both sturdy but light 4x100, 15x8.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:04 pm

Thanks for the link, it enabled me to find a thread discussing 15x8 wheels for track use which had a good list of candidates: http://forums.nwp4life.com/zerothread?id=38400

Still nothing from enkei but tire rack have actually replied asking for a few more details some might get something via that route. Not holding my breath though as from what I have seen searching enkei has given nothing to folks even just doing autoX and hasn't even wanted the wheel for analysis which is weird. http://www.iwsti.com/forums/3639988-post34.html

I used to have 16x7 rota slipstreams on my old mini which are effectively the same design as the tracklite burns but without the enkei flow form process… I think the weight of the mini is still keeping me a little scared still though. Maybe I should cancel x-mas/vacations etc bite the bullet and go for overkill: http://miataroadster.com/volk_racing/vo ... 40659.aspx

I think my ideal setup would be:
Wet/street - 15x7 oz ultra or 15x7.5 6ul with 205 bridgestone re-11a
Dry - 15x8 volk te37 with 225 nitto nt01

I was going to raise some funds by selling my mini’s street setup but right now they are the only thing keeping it off blocks… so I have to get another set before I can do that. Also I will be switching the wagon to its winters next weekend and am going to downgrade to a cheaper summer setup, won’t be as dope or whatever the kids say now, but will let me move some money from the street car to the track car which seems to make sense.

If anyone is interested in either wheel set they are:
16x7 ET42 BBS RF 56.1mm Hub Bore 4x100 pcd
205-50-16 Dunlop Z1 Star Specs (~50% tread left)
$500 with the tires $400 just the wheels
^ If Eric still wants these once I have something else to hold the mini off the ground he called dibs a few weeks ago

18x8.5 ET13 BBS RK 002 74.1mm Hub Bore 5x120 pcd
245-40-18 Fuzion ZRi <- re-branded Bridgestone summers (~85% tread left)
Includes 74.1mm -> 72.56mm Hub Rings if the buyer wants them
$1300 with the tires $1100 just the wheels

I can bring either or both to the cdc autoX for test fitting. I suppose the good news is that given there aren't any track events till next year I have a few months more to debate this/ find things to sell on cl .
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ericw » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:30 am

ACoopeR wrote: 16x7 ET42 BBS RF 56.1mm Hub Bore 4x100 pcd
205-50-16 Dunlop Z1 Star Specs (~50% tread left)
$500 with the tires $400 just the wheels
^ If Eric still wants these once I have something else to hold the mini off the ground he called dibs a few weeks ago
I was thinking 15s and then the scion almost got stuck on a speed bump the other day. 8-) We'll have to test fit.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:49 pm

I was going to suggest we do that at autoX on the 16th, as Frederick is halfway between us, but based on how close the championship is you prolly want to bring the miata :P

Though I do want to test out some 6UL fits on the mini if you think there will be time... provided my new coil pack is on by then and the mini is back to normal.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ericw » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:22 am

Yeh I am going to bring the miata. There should be plenty of time to check the 6uls - I will bring my jack :)
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by hufflepuff » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:25 am

So, this strikes me as pretty surprising, but i've been reading about all these different wheels, cheap to expensive, that have cracked or even failed catastrophically. You know which wheel has never been mentioned? Tirerack TR Motorsports. They're cheap, reasonably light, and very available. It seems weird, especially since they are only gravity cast, but many SE30 and SM guys are running them and i haven't heard of a single failure...

Regardless, frequent cleaning and inspection for cracks is always a good decision. I haven't accepted that wheels should be treated as "consumables" (though many insist they should), but at the price of the TRMs, that's not out of the question.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:25 pm

good point, i remember looking at those but skipped over them for some reason... I haven't seen any failures either maybe because they are a bit heavier and have those thicker spokes... then again i hadn't found a pf-01 failure before mine :-/

the misfire didn't go away after swapping the coil pack so more frustration there :evil:

some tr wheels for the street tire rain setup shouldn't be too risky as street tires won't put the same forces on the wheel
i don't know if i will have the confidence to drive it hard with cast wheels on r-comps though and without confidence i won't be going fast, i am going to post a bunch of parts that have been sitting around on craiglist/ebay etc over the holidays to fund raise and see how the annual review goes at work and maybe forged will be attainable

i just checked and tirerack's site only has 16's for the mini in trmotorsport size but iirc e30 non-m hubs are 4x100 and bigger than a mini... i know the miata hub is smaller so the spec miata fitment won't work on the mini but an e30 wheel should...
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:30 pm

yup e30 hub bore is 1mm bigger than a mini

the offsets would be super aggressive on the mini at
15x7 et25 or
15x8 et20

hmm my old ones were 15x8 et35 but with a 5mm spacer in there rear and a 20mm in the front
so the front should work the rear might be a tad stancenation lol...
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ericw » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:45 pm

I'm pretty sure Tirerack model fitment actually takes brake clearance into account. Not just offset and hub bore. When I was browsing for the scion some wheels with the same offset would come up for miata but not the scion and they have the same hub bore. So... for whatever that's worth.
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Re: Track Wheels

Post by ACoopeR » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:09 pm

good point, if it doesn't clear oem brakes i doubt it would clear the ones i have... it might be worth emailing one of the dudes at tire rack to see if they know why the 15" don't show up the for the mini
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