BMW Project Car Advice Wanted

[kyle.bowker]

Grassroots Motorsports is the devil. Hold on, wait a minute. Let me back up just a bit and start over. A few months ago yellowcar (Toby) and I went to Fredericksburg, VA to pick up a free parts car. Someone was offering up a 1988 BMW 635CSi for free, first come, first serve. All one needed to do was bring a truck, trailer, and their own set of wheels to haul the thing away. You see, the car belonged to this guy's kid, and together they'd dumped thousands of dollars into maintaining it since the kid bought it in 2000. But the kid graduated from college, got a better job, and no longer needed the car. Tin worm got the best of it and when the automatic transmission finally kicked the bucket they decided that enough was enough and decided to park it next to the house under a pine tree. It sat for about 2 years as the dad slowly pulled parts off the car to sell on eBay in an attempt to recoup some of his losses. Finally, mom was sick and tired of seeing the ugly shell in the driveway and demanded dad get rid of it ASAP. I e-mailed the dad and he said that someone else had already called first dibs. Okay, fine. I told him to let me know if the deal fell through as I was still interested. Sure enough, two weeks later, the guy called me back and asked me when I could pick it up. Toby kindly offered to help me out and we went down there one Saturday morning to take a look at it.

The car was pretty much picked clean. Gone was the interior, radiator, alternator, power steering pump, hydraulic brake accumulator, throttle body, AFM, airbox, various electronic relays and control modules, ABS pump, front and rear bumpers, lights, etc. However, the car reportedly had a strong running 3.5L motor which would be great to have as a spare for my black 1984 BMW 633CSi. It also had some newer suspension components but they were stock and therefore of little value. The car had been converted from hydraulic self-leveling rear suspension to standard coil spring and damper arrangement. However, the car did have good glass, the front end and hood was clean, as were the doors. The delicate aluminum windshield trim alone made the entire effort worthwhile as it's no longer available new and used examples are expensive.

Once I got the car home I cleaned it up a bit and took a closer look at what I had. The front fenders are trash and there is significant rust to the rear wheel arches. They all do that. In fact, my black 633CSi is going to Classic Chris' Restorations (run by our very own Joe MacInnes) for this exact same repair in a few months as soon as shop space opens up. I found some more rust in the sills and around the tail lights but it wasn't significantly worse than my black rust bucket that I've been driving around for the past 2 years. However, I don't really need two rust buckets and it looked like this parts car was indeed destined for the scrap heap after I finished pulling the motor, hood, doors, and glass.

But then laziness set in. It was winter, the weather was cold, the days were short, and I had very little desire to go outside and work in a cramped carport. To drop the transmission I would have to work underneath the car while supported on jack stands. It was not an ideal situation. So I procrastinated.

I talked to a few people about my plans. Some said I was crazy for even going through the trouble. Why was I washing my time with this old junker? Why don't I just sell all my project cars and get a new car? These are valid questions. My newest and most reliable transportation is my 1991 Mazda Miata with 130k miles on the odometer so I really could use a newer, more comfortable, practical, and dare I say normal car for daily use. I really don't like working on cars, I much prefer driving them. But sadly I'm not in the economic position to drive a Porsche 997 GT3. I could probably afford something newer and semi-sporty but I don't relish the idea of a car payment every month. Nothing new in my price range appeals to me and everything used in my price range will likely be a money pit. This is the dilemma many of us face when deciding whether or not to purchase a new car or hold onto the crap we've got now.

Speaking with a close friend one day he mentioned it would be a real shame to send such a cool car to the crusher. I wondered aloud if I would regret crushing a 635CSi. It's not a rare car by any means but it'd be like me hearing a story from an uncle about him crushing an Austin-Healey 100 back in the day just because it had a bit of rust in the fenders and he couldn't be bothered. Nowadays people spend $10k to buy JUNK Austin-Healey 100s just for the opportunity to spend another $60k fixing it up.

The more I looked at the white 635CSi sitting in my carport the more I saw some potential in it. Sure, the car needed some work, but what car doesn't? I wasn't up to the challenge of a full-restoration since these cars are incredibly complicated. I cringed at the idea of getting the rear seat air conditioning working again. However, turning it into a race car wouldn't be that hard. Race cars don't need fancy interiors. Race cars don't need to look pretty. They just need to be safe, go relatively fast, and be fun to drive. Since the car was already stripped down it was easy to imagine a roll cage, racing bucket seats, and some fender flares covering up where the rust once was. Maybe this isn't such a bad idea, after all?

Originally, I was thinking I would simply turn the white E24 into a drift / time attack/ HPDE car that might see occasional street use (for instance, to transport it to an auto-x event or to simply cruise in). Such a car would be low, stiff, and fast with a big turbo for big HP. Then I read an article in the BMWCCA magazine Roundel about Targa Newfoundland and I watched a bunch of videos on YouTube, which made me want to build the car for open road rally. Such a car would have lots of wheel travel to soak up bumps and it would have to be very reliable to withstand the brutality of such events. The entire vehicle would sacrifice weight for strength; the cage would be more robust, major mechanical components like engine, transmission, and differential would have skid plate protection, etc. Then Toby gave me the latest issue of Grassroots Motorsports magazine where they talked about their Berzerkley project carfor the $200x Challenge.

Don't get me wrong - racing ain't cheap. But it doesn't have to be expensive, either. The GRM $200x Challenge could be a great advertising tool for my friend Ben's race fabrication shop, Kaplhenke Racing. Generally, people start with better cars but starting with a free parts car ain't a bad way to begin. From there it's just a bunch of elbow grease, some beer and a few good eBay deals away from glory.

Thoughts?

[kyle.bowker]

Sorry for the crap pics.






The other POS

[ProDarwin]

GRM challenge. You can fit a LOT of motor in that engine bay. And being a somewhat rare car, some of the parts still on it may be worth something.

[Gonz]

sounds like a lot of work.

those are beautiful cars when they are in great shape, but if you really want to do all that work, why not start with the prior generation 3.0Csi and fix that up? those are true head turners and somewhat rare & might have some value when you finish.

Or, if it's for rally/HPDE/racing, I would consider dropping that 3.5L into a mid 80's 5 series body ( 533i,535i,528e,524td,etc). Those are lighter, and stiffer, for rally racing & can be picked up dirt cheap.

My parents used to have a 72 Bavaria (like a 3.0Si) That also would make a good vintage rallye car. But like all BMWs, they tend to be rust buckets

whatever you do. I hope to see it at a CDC event

[kyle.bowker]

sounds like a lot of work.

Yes, it will take a lot of work. But I figure a race car doesn't need a lot of things like a luxury interior that make building a street car such a PITA. Plus, I'm not working to any set schedule. There isn't any particular deadline to meet so I can pay for it over time as funds allow

why not start with the prior generation 3.0Csi and fix that up?

Cost and availability of parts. E9 coupes are rare cars. They're not cheap or readily available. Even examples in rough shape are likely beyond what I want to spend. E9 coupes rust just as bad as 2002s, if not worse, with shock towers being of primary concern. Parts are expensive and much more difficult to find. An E9 that's been extensively modified for competition use won't ever be worth much as collectors are looking for pristine examples in stock condition or factory race cars with period history (i.e. CSL "Batmobiles").

I've already got the 6er which makes it a lot more appealing. Plus the 6er shares parts with nearly every 5- and 7- series built from 1983-1995, which makes junkyard parts hunting that much easier. The rust on the 6er is largely cosmetic and easily repaired compared to rebuilding shock towers on a rusty E9 coupe.

Or, if it's for rally/HPDE/racing, I would consider dropping that 3.5L into a mid 80's 5 series body ( 533i,535i,528e,524td,etc). Those are lighter, and stiffer, for rally racing & can be picked up dirt cheap.

Using another car as a starting point requires an immediate outlay of cash that could instead be spent on DOM steel tubing for my roll cage or FIA bucket seats. I know I could buy a relatively cheap E28 5-series. I could also buy a cheap E30 3-series and go SpecE30 racing. This project isn't necessarily about doing the "smart" thing or copying what everyone else is doing. I'd like to have something unique that you don't see everyday. I know it's arguable, but I think most would agree that the coupe looks way cooler than the more common E28 5-series sedan. The 5-series is only marginally lighter than my coupe, if that. US coupes weigh ~3200lbs (due to heavy US bumpers), Euro cars weight ~ 3000 lbs., and my car in it's current state weights maybe ~2700lbs. US-spec E28s weigh anywhere from 2870-3100lbs. depending on exactly which model and options are chosen. I don't necessarily agree with you that the sedan is significantly stiffer shell. The E24 is substantially stiffer than E9 coupe, but the E24 and E28 are of comparable chassis stiffness. All becomes moot when you install a roll cage.

There are lots of reasons why this is a silly idea and there are plenty of other good starting points for race cars. Smart money buys a race car that some other sucker already built. However, I've already got this car and the knowledge to fix it up. I think it'd be cool to have both a race car and street car version of the same make/model vehicle, especially one as cool as the E24 coupe. This project would give me something to do and I can save money by doing much of the fabrication work myself or with the help of my friends' race shop. My justification for moving forward with this project probably looks pretty pathetic to an objective observer, like a drunk trying to rationalize why he drinks. I guess I'm just looking for direction, reassurance, or a reality check.

[echan]

I think you should do the Targa Newfoundland. Sure you can do the GRM or HPDE events, but if you do the Targa, you'll have an experience that you'll really enjoy the rest of your life. Just be careful that your life doesn't terminate at the Targa!

Ed

[kyle.bowker]

Just be careful that your life doesn't terminate at the Targa!

Great advice! Here is a video of Craig Seko and Ian O'Halloran taking a drink in their 1990 Porsche 944 S2. I watched a lot of Targa Newfoundland videos and there are many water "exposures" like this that drivers have to be careful of.


Here's a good overview of Targe Newfoundland that gives a sense of the various road surfaces.

[jmac]

Cool idea. Does it have to be BMW parts. Maybe you could put a v6 in it. It's easy to do work on a car when it's all apart.

[kyle.bowker]

Does it have to be BMW parts. Maybe you could put a v6 in it.

Sacrilege! It's called Bayerische Motoren Werke! Motoren = Motor. It's one of the best parts about the whole car and the mighty M30 inline-6 is legendary. Suggesting I put a V6 in an E24 coupe would be like someone suggesting a turbocharged Nissan motor swap into a '67 Mustang. Oh, wait, somebody did that already!





There's no practical reason to swap a V6 in, especially when the I-6 is in good shape and has the potential for significant power (cams, chip, intake, and exhaust will be pushing around 210hp at the wheels and a DIY turbo will easily generate 350+whp). The only motor swap I'd even entertain would be a SBC or a BMW V12, both of which have already been done by others. I think my money is better spent elsewhere at this point (safety equipment and suspension).


http://www.mwrench.com/m6v8/v12install/
http://www.mwrench.com/m6v8/LS6/

[ButtDyno]

Originally, I was thinking I would simply turn the white E24 into a drift / time attack/ HPDE car that might see occasional street use (for instance, to transport it to an auto-x event or to simply cruise in). Such a car would be low, stiff, and fast with a big turbo for big HP. Then I read an article in the BMWCCA magazine Roundel about Targa Newfoundland and I watched a bunch of videos on YouTube, which made me want to build the car for open road rally. Such a car would have lots of wheel travel to soak up bumps and it would have to be very reliable to withstand the brutality of such events. The entire vehicle would sacrifice weight for strength; the cage would be more robust, major mechanical components like engine, transmission, and differential would have skid plate protection, etc. Then Toby gave me the latest issue of Grassroots Motorsports magazine where they talked about their Berzerkley project carfor the $200x Challenge.

IMHO, start with the goals first - do you want to do time attack - do you want to have a competitive autox car - do you want to have a rallyx car - etc etc. Only then can you figure out whether you should keep this particular car.

[kyle.bowker]

I want to do it all but that is not realistic. So the purpose of this thread is to help me decide what a cool goal would be to achieve with this project car. The E24 will never be a competitive auto-xer. I'd like to lap a race track but I don't care about racing so building a cheap HPDE car would be nice. But then again, if I'm going through the effort to install a cage, suspension, etc. it makes sense to go a little bit further and prep it for open road racing. I think it would be a blast to do Targa Newfoundland, Silver State Classic, Chihuahua Express or La Carrera Panamericana. The car doesn't need to be built to comply with any particular class rules. It just needs a reasonable level of safety and enough suspension and motor to be fun.

[kyle.bowker]

Dave just showed me a classified ad for a 635CSi race car for sale. Looks pretty sweet to me. I should just save up and buy this one instead. But then Kaplhenke Racing won't get the exposure for the project build. It's nice to be able to give your friends some business and spread the wealth.





P.S. I really need to find a phpBB3 MOD to automatically resize images

[kyle.bowker]

[Gonz]

the white car looks good. And you can spend your time DRIVING the car instead of working on it. I'm discovering more and more that I enjoy driving, much more than working/maintaining a car.

but if you are going to be doing AutoX/HPDE etc, you've not much choice except to work on it yourself, unless you like paying $$$ for someone to do it for you.


The second picture is striking. It's truly amazing how ugly BMW's have become in the past five or six years. The Z8 was their pinnacle, and from then forward, it's all been crapola styling.

[Gonz]

Kyle,

how's the project coming along? ???????

[kyle.bowker]

I've got a sponsor! However, Kaplhenke Racing is in the process of moving to a new shop right now. As soon as they're all moved and settled in my car will take residence there for the major overhaul. I really must be a masochist because I'm trying to fix up 2 old sixers at the same time. The black car is going to Joe's shop around the time of the next auto-x in Frederick to get bodywork. Can anyone spare some change? Please, sir, can you spare a dollar? Anything? My 6er really needs a paint job....

[Gonz]

If you've got more time than money, just paint it yourself with a paint brush and some Rustoleum and $100 in supplies.
Of course you'll need access to a garage. Works better on lighter colors.

Here's the step by step:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/body ... index.html

Another testimonial: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthr ... ?t=1960141


Gonz