Feedback from the miata guys...

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hufflepuff
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Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by hufflepuff »

I really like my E36 M3, but i have been craving something smaller and lighter. Cheaper gas, tires, and brakes would be a nice side benefit. i autocross with CDC about 6 times a year and do track with TrackDaze in upper intermediate level a few times a year.

If one were to run a 1.8L NA or NB miata at stock (or near stock) power levels with 205/50-15 extreme tires (dunlop ss, kumho xs, bridgestone re-11...) and a decent suspension setup, how important is an LSD? Should i look for a miata with the factory torsen unit, or would an open diff be fine?

i would also be interested in some basic setup info that everyone is running (springs, dampers, wheels, tires, brakes, alignment).

Much Appreciated!!
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echan
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by echan »

I'm not sure about the miata but LSD was a huge improvement on the TR6.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Areddi »

I have an 01' LS, so it has the 6speed with the Torsen and the sport suspension. If you want to ask me anything specific feel free to PM or post and I'll do my beat to answer any of your questions.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by JoeTR6 »

This weekend I watched an early Miata launch and slip it's right/rear tire until it crossed the first gate. A Miata doesn't have that much power, so I'd guess it had an open diff. My early Miata had the viscous limited slip that made some difference, but the torsen makes a very noticable improvement unless you lift a rear tire. If the suspension is tuned so that you lift the front first, it's very effective at keeping the (limited) power from going up in smoke.

I've had both the Kumho XS and RE-11s on the MazdaSpeed. The Kumhos were stickier tires when hot, but I like the Bridgestones better all-around. With the Kumhos, the first morning/afternoon run was used just to heat the tires and practice lines.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Apexcarver »

I have a 95 with an open diff.

Running GC coilovers (375 front springs, soft), RB front sway, stock rear, 205 RE-11's.

Isnt really that big of an issue to me. I can light it up if I drive wrong in a really tight turn or mess up a launch, but its not that hard to drive around at all.

Rears its head more in the wet, in the dry you dont notice it much.

I drive the car in the snow as well, with narrow snow tires, while living out in Cumberland and driving up to Deep Creek. Takes some finesse up hills sometimes.

Caveat, I have a ESP Mustang Cobra that I have been hunting diff problems with (read, drives like it has an open diff sometimes). That is aggravation incarnate, even on 275 V710's. It may have tempered me as far as how to drive with it.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by v10climber »

The only miata I've driven on the auto-x with an open diff was a NA and it wasn't a huge problem but I could see how you could get some inside wheelspin with some more power and grip.

I drove Rocky's spec RX-7 (The blue first gen) at the last auto-x and although it had plenty of power without a properly functioning LSD you really couldn't put the power down.

Miatas are cheap. Spend the money and get a diff :)
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by yardy8301 »

New NA (1.6l) miata owner, 1 autox in it, owned for a whole week now, completely stock, dunlop star spec tires. I really dont think lsd would have help me much. Im amazed how well the thing sticks to the ground. Id say just get one in good shape and not worry too much about lsd. Everything is super cheap for this car, if you find you need it later, then get it. Of course there are always exceptions (if you want to be in stock class scca, I dont think youd be allowed to add lsd to a none lsd car and stay in stock, but dont quote me on that) as well as options (lsd from rx7).

Bottom line imo, do you need it? No. Do you want it? why not. can you add it later if you dont get it oem equiped? yes.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by echan »

Another way to look at it is that buying a car with LSD won't be much (if any) difference in price that a miata without LSD.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Imprezive_04 »

If you care or ever will care about SCCA the diff will make a difference. STR vs STS

My 1.6L miata had the viscous rear diff which are known to stop working. I also drove a 1.8L with an open diff at a few events. I much prefered the 1.8L. Both had the same Andy Hollis style suspension setup koni's, big springs, big front bar. The power difference was noticeable and the 1.8L got the power to the ground with no issues even on tight lots like HG.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by hufflepuff »

Thanks for the feedback everyone. While i appreciate the M3's LSD (great fun to steer the car with the throttle), it sounds like a stock or near stock power level miata may be acceptable given a good suspension setup and good tires. In the wet or snow, this may not be the case.

I need to talk with Dave and Fred and Dan to see what they are running.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

I have a 95M with torsen, konis, FM swaybars, and FCM bumpstops/mounts. From a fun per dollar perspective, its the best car I've ever owned. I don't autocross it much because I have so much fun in the cobra, but every time I to run it (on RE11's), I'm always shocked at how well it turns and stops. Even with a stock drivetrain, it'll embarrass many "faster" cars on the track. You may have to give a few point by's on the straights, but there's not a lot that'll hang with it in the corners. I've never driven one with an open diff, so I can't comment there.

It's a great daily driver too. Parts are stupid cheap and I'm convinced you can disassemble the whole car with 10/14mm wrenches and a screwdriver. :mrgreen:
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by hufflepuff »

i appreciate all the feedback everyone. i didn't know there were so many factory packages that included the LSD (i checked miata.net/faq). i will definitely look for one with the torsen LSD.

On a second note, i would like to compare the NA to the NB. people say the NB has a better suspension and a slightly larger trunk. Is there much real-world performance or daily driving difference between the two?
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by david.valeri »

hufflepuff wrote:I need to talk with Dave and Fred and Dan to see what they are running.
hufflepuff wrote:On a second note, i would like to compare the NA to the NB.
NA, stock drivetrain w/ Torsen + possibly Mazda competition engine mounts and stiffer diff mounts. I'm not 100% sure on the mounts, but I think the previous owner did them.

I've driven Ed C.'s green Miata, but there is no comparison since it has the stock suspension and 10 year old all seasons on it. Whether is had an LSD or not is irrelevant.

I drove Dan K.'s Miata and the engine felt super smooth. Also, the cockpit is much much different between NAs and NBs.
  • I would imagine that the NB is a much nicer daily driver than an NA and it has a little more grunt, but I don't think I would want to daily drive any of them.
  • The 0-60 and 1/4 mile times have come down a second or two over the progression from NA 1.6, to NA 1.8, to early NB, to later NB, but the weight has gone up a couple hundred pounds over the years too.
  • The NB looks better in my opinion
  • The NB suspension geometry is slightly better (all in the subframe I think so an NA can have it if you swap subframes)
  • The NB has more room in the front of the engine bay for things like cold air intakes.
  • The NB trunk is a little bigger and the battery is more out of the way.
  • I think the later NBs require premium gasoline since they are up around 10:1 compression.
  • The NA 1.6 had a viscous LSD. Stay away from these.
Look to some of the national level CSP cars and the 949 Racing cars for what is possible in the "money is no object" category. You can get respectable naturally aspirated power out of an NB motor for under 4K, turbo will be cheaper initially, but if you plan to take it to the track I would not touch FI. Honestly, it doesn't need much more power, if any at all.

PS: OBDII started in 1996. That leaves 94-95 as the only years of 1.8s that you can do whatever with. Alternatively, the 1.6 in an earlier car can be swapped for a 99-00 or 01+ motor and you can avoid the buzz kill of OBDII.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Areddi »

In my opinion the 01-05 NB is the best one to have. The VVT engine(BP-Z3) is considered the best engine Mazda ever put in the Miata. Some of the turbo guys prefer the BP-4W which is the the non-VVT engine you'll find in the 99-00 NB(also the engine used in the Mazdaspeed). The MZR Motor in the NC's is not bad either, but the car that surrounds it is so so.

I do run premium fuel in my 01', and I can say that the car feel like it has a lot more power then it actually does. Intake, exhaust, and sway bars later the car feels amazing compared to stock, which was already good. I am working on being a better driver, and then I can take it to it's potential.

Oh, and the NB is in my opinion one of the best looking cars. This is mainly since it was styled after the FD Rx7 which was also one of the best looking cars ever made.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by hufflepuff »

Anyone know what setup is Larry Casey running on his 2000 NB? He took FTD at the April 28 bowie event!
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by v10climber »

hufflepuff wrote:Anyone know what setup is Larry Casey running on his 2000 NB? He took FTD at the April 28 bowie event!
Larry doesn't own a miata (as far as I know) so he was probably driving someone else's car. Possibly Jared's. Looks like Jared raw timed 4th at that event in a 2000 miata as well. He's got the green turbo NB. Megasquirt with a small-ish turbo and NT-01s. He made a bunch of suspension changes in the past year so I'm not sure what the current setup is.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

yup...Larry was driving Jared's miata when he spanked Fred's cobra.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by JoeTR6 »

I owned a 1990 Miata for 18 years and switched to a MazdaSpeed 3 years ago. With some help from the aftermarket, the stock turbo gives quite a difference in power (roughly twice in terms of HP at the wheels). There was some power gain through the years, but there was also a gain in weight. Overall, the MazdaSpeed is more solid feeling to drive. It has bracing everywhere underneath the car and the slightly improved suspension geometry. Even without the power gain from the turbo, I'd rather drive it daily. That said, the early Miata felt more "alive". It weighs over 300 lbs. less, and the 1.6 liter engine felt more willing to rev. It's more tossable on an autocross course.

You should get a few rides and borrow both to drive at an autocross. Be warned, the freshness of the suspension makes a huge difference. My NA felt like a totally new car after I changed the suspension bushings at 120k miles.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Claff »

I have a handful of Miatas including a 93 with open diff and 99 Sport with Torsen. We run the 93 in SCCA STS and wheelspin isn't a big deal, I only get it trying to dig out of tight corners and it's manageable, and the car is competitive locally.

Just driving around town I like the extra grunt of the 99. The only negative I have with that car is that the seats aren't as comfortable as the early NAs we have. 1.8 vs 1.6 is six of one/half-dozen of the other. 1.8 is faster but the 1.6 tries harder.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Claff »

Can't edit previous post so I'll add this here:

Basic setup info from what I've seen from those who piece together stuff themselves: Koni race front shocks, Koni sport rears, 700lb front springs, 450? rear. Racing Beat big tubular front sway bar, no rear bar. FatCat bumpstops, Flyin Miata rear shock mounts.

We pushed the easy button on our 93 and had FatCat make us coilovers (650f/425r) with custom-valved Bilsteins. Take them out of the box and put them in the car, no assembly required.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by kyle.bowker »

Unless you have forced induction or a V8, Miatas generally have a lot more grip than available power. Don't get me wrong, I like the Torsen diff I swapped into my Miata, but if you're trying to go fast in a parking lot, Rcomps are a much better way to spend money than LSD.
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by phranquelynn »

hufflepuff wrote: I need to talk with Dave and Fred and Dan to see what they are running.
my feelings are hurt i'm not included in this list. :oops:
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by hufflepuff »

phranquelynn wrote:
hufflepuff wrote: I need to talk with Dave and Fred and Dan to see what they are running.
my feelings are hurt i'm not included in this list. :oops:
My bad frank. I hadn't seen you around and was afraid you had gotten out of miatas!
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by hufflepuff »

This past weekend i rode in:

- Completely stock 1990 NA with EP tires (no lsd)
- Denise's 1999 NB with EP tires (stock suspension) (no lsd)
- Frank's NB with sticker EP tires (lsd)

Frank also let me take his NB for a quick spin; it was very fun and much appreciated!

The miatas were all so fun to ride in/drive. Tons of cornering grip. The ones with stock suspension actually felt more fun/playful than Frank's (although Frank's was faster and more controlled). I think getting rid of the body roll gets rid of some of the speed sensation or something...

Also, I didn't perceive wheelspin as being an issue on the cars with open diff. The M3 has been sold so my goal is to add a miata to the stable before the end of the season. Thanks everyone for the feedback!
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Re: Feedback from the miata guys...

Post by Wade Chamberlain »

crap...wish I knew...I'd have let you drive mine! Not sure if I'll bring it back out (unless it rains).
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