Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

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elyblue
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Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by elyblue »

I have been researching the different TBE options out there for a 2011 WRX and would like some opinions on the subject. My primary focus for my car is on torque gain vs. HP gain with the parts I replace and add. But of course, I am subject to the wonderful VA laws pertaining to car mods and yes I have to deal with emissions testing. So far these are the TBE combos I have looked at.

Down Pipes:
a.) COBB DP. (Not sure if it replaces OEM emissions control.)
b.) Nvidia Catted Divorced Wastegate DP.

CBEs:
a.) Nvidia Racing CBE. (I know this one comes with a silencer and is LOUD)
b.) Nvidia N1 CBE.
c.) Nvidia Q300.
d.) COBB CBE.
JG
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v10climber
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by v10climber »

Torque and horsepower are related so it's hard to get a disproportionate amount of one without the other. However, with the freer flowing exhaust on the WRX you're going to be upping the boost fairly significantly (up to 21psi depending on tuner) so you'll get a significant amount of torque. My 08 STI with just a Harman Motive catted downpipe and a protune put down 299 whp and 343 torque on Agile Automotive's dyno. I haven't had the car emissions tested yet (have to do that this week actually...) but I don't expect to have any problems. The catted downpipes shouldn't have any problems passing VA emissions.

I personally don't like the Cobb or Nvidia downpipes. The Cobb downpipe is great quality but spendy and tapers down to a 2.5" where it meets the catback. Not a good thing if you're going to be replacing the factory catback as you'll have a restriction there. The divorced wastegate setup the nvidia uses is fine and it's a very popular downpipe but the design isn't really a true divorced wastegate setup. I went with the Harman Motive bellmouth dp and after two winters in VA it's looking great. Much better than my factory exhaust :lol:

As far as a cbe go you have a ton of options. The one I've personally been drooling over is the P&L quad tip but it's supposedly crazy loud. There is a post on IWSTI that attempts to rate the loudness of exhausts relative to each other. Might be worth a look. I'm not sure if you're looking for something loud or not. My friend has a '12 STI with an nvidia catless dp and a Q300 and it sounds good but resonates in the big hatch. If you're looking to be competitive a single exit is where it's at because it saves you the most weight. But it looks a little funny with the spare opening in the bumper. I've seen clever things done with the other opening like installing a tow hitch. However apparently the tow hitch isn't easy to fabricate.

One thing I would highly highly highly recommend is a protune after your upgrades. There are a bunch of good tuners in the area. Mach V, TurboXS, Agile Automotive, and a few others. I went to Agile but I've heard decent things about all of them. Mach V is in Sterling and they've tuned a ton of Subarus on the AP. I'm assuming you've got your engine management picked out yes? Either Cobb Accessport or opensource? You'll need one or the other.

Also, something to keep in mind is that if you intend on running with the SCCA in STU then your map has to maintain stock boost mappings. This means getting a custom map done by one of the local tuners. Hill at Agile gave me a STU legal map when he did my protune and it was included in the cost of the tune. If you're going to get protuned make sure to go through the car once over before you go. New spark plugs, oil change, and air filter. Depending on how many miles your car has you could probably just do an oil change and be good.

Yet another thing is heatshields. I chose to cut my factory one to work with the aftermarket dp. You can get aftermarket heatshields but I've heard of people having varying degrees of success with them and I'm pretty sure they're not STU legal. It takes 10 minutes with an angle grinder to cut down your factory heatshield. There is even a "template" on IWSTI.

Sorry for the epic long post. Hope it answers your questions. It's amazing what these cars can do with a few bolt ons. You'll love the new power :D
--Nick D
elyblue
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by elyblue »

No need to be sorry for the epic post. I found it to have a lot of things I did not think about, like the heat shield mod, STU map (I do want to run SCCA one day in that class), and what to do prior to a pro tune. I do already have my engine management tool. I got a COBB AccessPort prior to me knowing about autocrossing. I have had other experienced tuners and drivers recommend Opensource. Any opinion on that topic?
JG
Why blame the car?
v10climber
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by v10climber »

I'm just going to preface this post with saying that I have very little personal experience with opensource tuning. However, I've been around Subarus for a while now (late 2008) and I spend waaaay too much time on the forums so I have an idea of what each option has to offer.

I chose the accessport because when I was doing my research it seemed like the kind of set it and forget it option. Obviously you should be doing data logs every now and then to make sure everything is running well but other than that I don't ever plug my AP in. If I've unhooked the battery I'll have to plug my AP in to reset my launch control rpm. The Opensource seems to be is popular among those that like to tinker and it is a slightly cheaper option. Honestly I don't know of any killer features that opensource has that the AP doesn't except for maybe logging to an SD card. With AccessTuner Race you can now build your own maps and tune your own car using the AP. The new firmware also supports speed density if you end up going that route.

That's all not to say that Opensource isn't a valid option. There is an absolute ton of support out there for it and all you need is a tactrix cable and your laptop. However, if you want to change anything then you'll need your laptop. If you like tinkering and want to better understand how everything works then go with Opensource. Otherwise just get the AP. There isn't really a wrong answer though. If you aren't going to do a protune the Cobb OTS (off-the-shelf) maps are decent and it's certainly the easiest option. Just plug it in and flash to the new map. I'd rather run a Cobb OTS map than trust someone else who posted a tune on the forums. But above and beyond a Cobb OTS map I'd rather run a protune.
--Nick D
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by happyidiot »

I might be able to add a little bit of information regarding the AP/OpenSource topic. I have a stage 2 2004 WRX with headers, UP, and TBE (HKS catted DP to SPT). I'm currently using a APv1 OTS map. With the OTS map, I'm running pretty rich and am looking to get a tune in the next year. Cobb builds their maps for safety. Each engine is slightly different and will require a slightly different tune for better performance. By going with the AP, you are leaving some performance on the table. On the other hand, the AP is definitely set and forget. You do it once, then put it in a box, and may or may not look at it again, unless you are switching maps for different classes. The OS option requires a lot more tinkering to get it right, but you get a tune matching your engine. Also, there are places where you can buy an OS map, flash your ROM, then data log and send the logs back or post them online. They will then tweak the map and send it back to you. So, you aren't having to tune it yourself. If you do decide to go down the road of a protune with the AP, then that is an extra $500~ on top of the AP you already paid for vs the OS with tactrix cable and a base stage 2 map to start from would be around $150. For me, I'm going back and forth between the two for my protune. The reason I have an AP right now, I was able to get it for a really really low price.

There is a forum called DCAWD. The guys over there are extremely experienced in the area of AP vs OS. They have a tendency to lean towards OS. I found a thread along similar lines to what you are asking.

As for shops for tuning, I would not recommend Mach V in any way shape or form. I've heard plenty of horror stories from them regarding their engine work and work in general. I've heard good things about IAG and Agile though.
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by konkilr »

I would reccommend Turboxs. There products and tuning are the best! The SUXASS gets all its products and tuning from there. If you have ever seen the SUX you would agree their stuff is great. The SUX gets abused constantly at auto-x and works extremely well. I have been in the Subaru tuning community for many years and to me no one's products are as good as Turboxs's.

jake
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v10climber
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by v10climber »

happyidiot wrote:I have a stage 2 2004 WRX with headers, UP, and TBE (HKS catted DP to SPT). I'm currently using a APv1 OTS map. With the OTS map, I'm running pretty rich and am looking to get a tune in the next year. Cobb builds their maps for safety. Each engine is slightly different and will require a slightly different tune for better performance. By going with the AP, you are leaving some performance on the table. On the other hand, the AP is definitely set and forget. You do it once, then put it in a box, and may or may not look at it again, unless you are switching maps for different classes. The OS option requires a lot more tinkering to get it right, but you get a tune matching your engine. Also, there are places where you can buy an OS map, flash your ROM, then data log and send the logs back or post them online. They will then tweak the map and send it back to you. So, you aren't having to tune it yourself. If you do decide to go down the road of a protune with the AP, then that is an extra $500~ on top of the AP you already paid for vs the OS with tactrix cable and a base stage 2 map to start from would be around $150. For me, I'm going back and forth between the two for my protune. The reason I have an AP right now, I was able to get it for a really really low price.

There is a forum called DCAWD. The guys over there are extremely experienced in the area of AP vs OS. They have a tendency to lean towards OS. I found a thread along similar lines to what you are asking.

As for shops for tuning, I would not recommend Mach V in any way shape or form. I've heard plenty of horror stories from them regarding their engine work and work in general. I've heard good things about IAG and Agile though.
Just an FYI you shouldn't be running an OTS Stage 2 map from Cobb if you're running aftermarket headers/up. That's probably why you're running rich. Better than running lean though ;)

I agree Cobb builds their maps for safety. But it makes sense when you consider their stage 2 map is used by people all over the country at different elevations and temperatures. That's why I bought my AP and then immediately went and got protuned. Both Cobb and OS have off-the-shelf maps and both can also be tuned for your car specifically. The difference is that OS is cheaper but more difficult to initially setup.

I'm not going to get in a big debate over which tuner is better. I'll just say that after reading lots and talking to lots of people (including the tuners) that I chose Hill at Agile. I know Jake loves TurboXS and I'll agree the Sux does drive awesome and Jermaine did a solid job on it. I know there are a lot of Subaru guys that have had good experiences with TurboXS. However, TurboXS doesn't tune using the AP so if you go that route you'll have to find a different tuner.
--Nick D
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by konkilr »

WRONG!!!!!! Germaine does do AP!!!! He just keeps qiuet about it.

And OTS maps are a really bad idea. I have seen many a blown motor by them. They are never safe.

jake
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by elyblue »

Wow, this is really turning into a great post. I appreciate the feedback. From my research and everyones input, I would agree on getting off my OTS as soon as I can. Thats is why I am data logging everyday. :D

Regarding data logging, would someone please tell me, where can I get a listing of the items data logged, what they mean, and what are good values and bad values. You know, what would help me interpret, "Your engine is about to go BOOM!"
JG
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by happyidiot »

v10climber wrote:
Just an FYI you shouldn't be running an OTS Stage 2 map from Cobb if you're running aftermarket headers/up. That's probably why you're running rich. Better than running lean though ;)
Straight from Cobb,
Cobb wrote:For use with a 2004 WRX running a turbo-back exhaust system. Additional modifications such as uppipe and underdrive pulley are still within the acceptable parameters of this calibration.
Stage 2 93 v130.pdf

I've looked on Nasioc and there are plenty of people running headers with the Stage 2 map. OTS isn't a long term goal of mine though. As I mentioned, I will be getting a tune, hopefully next summer. This is just a hold over until then.
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by konkilr »

Just because others are doing it doesn't make it a good idea. There are plenty of inexperienced tuners on NASIOC. I wouldn't think headers would be a bad thing though since they just reduce your spool time. definately not a bad thing for an OTS map.

jake
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by v10climber »

happyidiot wrote:
Cobb wrote:For use with a 2004 WRX running a turbo-back exhaust system. Additional modifications such as uppipe and underdrive pulley are still within the acceptable parameters of this calibration.
Stage 2 93 v130.pdf

I've looked on Nasioc and there are plenty of people running headers with the Stage 2 map. OTS isn't a long term goal of mine though. As I mentioned, I will be getting a tune, hopefully next summer. This is just a hold over until then.
Interesting... are you running the most recent map from Cobb? The map notes I pulled up for a '04 WRX state turboback exhaust only. Maybe your maps are slightly different since you're running an AP V1? https://static.cobbtuning.com/cobbtunin ... 20v310.pdf
Stage2 93 v310 - Intended for an otherwise stock 2002-2005 Subaru WRX MT vehicle running a turbo-back exhaust with a high-flow catalytic converter, and STOCK INTAKE SYSTEM WITH STOCK AIR FILTER or COBB TUNING SF INTAKE SYSTEM ONLY. 93 or 94 octane fuels. Boost Targets: 17psi +/- 1psi peak boost pressure tapering down to ~12psi, depending on vehicle and conditions.
elyblue wrote:Regarding data logging, would someone please tell me, where can I get a listing of the items data logged, what they mean, and what are good values and bad values. You know, what would help me interpret, "Your engine is about to go BOOM!"
Took me awhile to find this and it's the best post I've seen on the subject... Maybe someone has something better though. http://www.3gwrx.com/forum/index.php/topic,8062.0.html

konkilr wrote:WRONG!!!!!! Germaine does do AP!!!! He just keeps qiuet about it.

And OTS maps are a really bad idea. I have seen many a blown motor by them. They are never safe.

jake
I never realized Germaine tunes with the AP. I just know he's not listed on Cobb's list of AP tuners. Does he use the licensed AP Tuning software from Cobb or does he use the Cobb AccessTuner Race that is available to non-tuners (people like me). I know the licensed version doesn't allow the end-user to edit/view the maps to protect the "intellectual property" of the tuner. I'm not sure if that's the only difference or not.

And as far as the OTS/protune/stock maps go with blowing motors. I don't think it's fair to say that OTS maps pop ringlands. There are people popping motors with stock tune, protunes, and OTS maps. I'm not convinced the tunes are the root cause of those cracked ringlands on the 08 and newer motors. Although a bad tune certainly wouldn't help the issue.
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by happyidiot »

v10climber wrote: Interesting... are you running the most recent map from Cobb? The map notes I pulled up for a '04 WRX state turboback exhaust only. Maybe your maps are slightly different since you're running an AP V1? https://static.cobbtuning.com/cobbtunin ... 20v310.pdf
Stage2 93 v310 - Intended for an otherwise stock 2002-2005 Subaru WRX MT vehicle running a turbo-back exhaust with a high-flow catalytic converter, and STOCK INTAKE SYSTEM WITH STOCK AIR FILTER or COBB TUNING SF INTAKE SYSTEM ONLY. 93 or 94 octane fuels. Boost Targets: 17psi +/- 1psi peak boost pressure tapering down to ~12psi, depending on vehicle and conditions.
That particular map is for the APv2 only. I'm running the latest map for the APv1 which is 1.30. Maybe they removed support for an upgraded UP with the v2 maps. It doesn't make sense to me though, because a lot of guys with 02-05s replaced the UP. Something about having a cat before the turbo doesn't sound like a smart idea...

Sorry for the hijack elyblue.
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by konkilr »

Cracked ringlands are due to detonation. There is no other way to crack a ringland. Spun rod bearings can be due to detonation as well as oil starvation. No one seems to realize that large G-forces on these cars can cause oil starvation. Therefore it may not matter what tune you have rather what you are doing with the car. The stock tunes are definately a little risky anyway. OTS maps seem to pop motors because people seem to think they are safe.

jake
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by elyblue »

Cracked ringlands are due to detonation. There is no other way to crack a ringland. Spun rod bearings can be due to detonation as well as oil starvation. No one seems to realize that large G-forces on these cars can cause oil starvation. Therefore it may not matter what tune you have rather what you are doing with the car. The stock tunes are definately a little risky anyway. OTS maps seem to pop motors because people seem to think they are safe.

jake
Do you have any recommendations in preventing oil starvation?
JG
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by konkilr »

Overfill your oil slightly.

jake
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Re: Recommendations on TBE for 2011 WRX

Post by ZXCSASAA »

As far as a cbe go you have a ton of options. The one I've personally been drooling over is the P&L quad tip but it's supposedly crazy loud. There is a post on IWSTI that attempts to rate the loudness of exhausts relative to each other. Might be worth a look. I'm not sure if you're looking for something loud or not. My friend has a '12 STI with an nvidia catless dp and a Q300 and it sounds good but resonates in the big hatch. If you're looking to be competitive a single exit is where it's at because it saves you the most weight. But it looks a little funny with the spare opening in the bumper. I've seen clever things done with the other opening like installing a tow hitch. However apparently the tow hitch isn't easy to fabricate.

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